Dew claws

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 pm

Yes Sue, you are right about the fronts being hard to clip. But I have seen them used, to hold things. (bones, decoys,etc)

and I happily put up with them. I recall no injuries to speak of, other than an occasional torn nail.

Kristie E · Post by **Kristie E** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:39 pm

Sugars Mom wrote:I have read many descriptions of the DS breed where they say they do not have dew claws...Sugar has them in the front only.

I have read this as well, seems kinda strange to me. Gwen has hers (front only)

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:04 pm

vneerland wrote:Yes Sue, you are right about the fronts being hard to clip. But I have seen them used, to hold things. (bones, decoys,etc) and I happily put up with them. I recall no injuries to speak of, other than an occasional torn nail.

Mine are always using the front ones too

Dingo chews them off himself if they get too long, Ivil's never get long, not sure why, she must be wearing them of on something

I think the difference, and reason for injury, is that most hind-dew claws are only attached to the leg trough skin, there is no bone structure, This causes them to be torn off easily, In breeds like Beauceron etc, where they are supposed to have them (even double!) they are attached to the leg much firmer because ther actually is a bone in them.

One (had two but this pup died) of the pups of our A-litter, Alva, has hindleg dew claws, one has the bone, the other doesn't. I have advised these people to have them removed as they X-ray the dog, it has to be done while alseep anyway. The stupid thing is, when I would have done this, as a breeder, I would have been fined etc. If the new owners do it, no problem, because they are not a breeder they have no reason to check and fine them

It also happens that breeders have them removed dew claws anyway and state they got hung up on the litter box rag or something, crawling around one day old.. and BOTH of the hindlegs got stuck...uh-huh. But I understand this, it is no big deal at this young age, literally just clip them off, usually it doesn't even bleed, and they do not feel much either since the nerves have not developed that well, where as later it is a full operation

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:12 pm

Seriously though. Who, if anyone, checks the pups in a litter to see if they have had the dew claws removed? If you do it by the first couple of days of their lives, I don't remember that you can even still see it once they have to get chipped? (BTW: chipping in Europe has to be done by officials from the breed club. It is not allowed for a breeder to do that, isn't that right Marjolein?)

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:38 pm

Yep, chipping with fci dogs is done by officials and with non pedigreed dogs by a vet.

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:45 pm

Selena wrote:Yep, chipping with fci dogs is done by officials and with non pedigreed dogs by a vet.

Here, a breeder can order (and implant) their own chips. What I like about that, is that the chips are registered directly to the breeder, so the dogs can trace straight back to them.

But just so I get it straight. It is mandatory for FCI dogs to be chipped, right? And it HAS to be done by the official from the pedigree registry? Chipping by the breeders vet is not allowed?

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:54 pm

vneerland wrote:
Selena wrote:Yep, chipping with fci dogs is done by officials and with non pedigreed dogs by a vet.
Here, a breeder can order (and implant) their own chips. What I like about that, is that the chips are registered directly to the breeder, so the dogs can trace straight back to them.

But just so I get it straight. It is mandatory for FCI dogs to be chipped, right? And it HAS to be done by the official from the pedigree registry? Chipping by the breeders vet is not allowed?

As far as i know, marjolein will correct me if i'm wrong, it has to be done by the officials indeed.

Oh, i would like to chip our own puppies, now it is done by our vet when they get their first shot at 6/6.5 wo.

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:25 pm

vneerland wrote:Seriously though. Who, if anyone, checks the pups in a litter to see if they have had the dew claws removed?

HA! now Germany is really a nice country, plenty of space, nice people...BUT...rules are to be followed. And if anyone is in charge of checking the rules are followed...they will!
I get a check in the first 2 weeks the pups are born, if I have a litter of over 8 pups they will come within one week. If they decide my bitch is inable of feeding over 8 pups they will tell you to give some pups to another female for milk (this has a name?? I forgot...)! Over mu dead body they will!
Anyway, they WILL check for things like that, dew claws, ears, injuries, white marks/nails, my entire house. They even want to now if I rent or bought my house??!?! (for REAL!!)

vneerland wrote:If you do it by the first couple of days of their lives, I don't remember that you can even still see it once they have to get chipped? (BTW: chipping in Europe has to be done by officials from the breed club. It is not allowed for a breeder to do that, isn't that right Marjolein?)

Nope, chipping in Germany is done by the vet, after they have been chipped, an official from the breeding club will come and check all pups and their passports, they bring a chipreader. I have to show them the DNA certificate procedure (that I have given material to check pups DNA with parents DNA) etc.

In Holland the official from "Raad van Beheer" (like AKC I guess) is chipping the dogs. Not the breeding club or the vet.

In Germany breeding is taken very seriously, it's hardly fun with all the paperwork, the cuteness makes up for a lot, but you will not find al lot of "oh, just one litter" breeders of pedigree dogs overhere...

Schlussdibusti · Post by **Schlussdibusti** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Marjolein wrote:I get a check in the first 2 weeks the pups are born, if I have a litter of over 8 pups they will come within one week. If they decide my bitch is inable of feeding over 8 pups they will tell you to give some pups to another female for milk (this has a name?? I forgot...)! Over mu dead body they will!
Anyway, they WILL check for things like that, dew claws, ears, injuries, white marks/nails, my entire house. They even want to now if I rent or bought my house??!?! (for REAL!!)

Excuse my ignorance, but who is "they" and how do they know when a litter was born, etc.?

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:47 pm

Schlussdibusti wrote:
Marjolein wrote:I get a check in the first 2 weeks the pups are born, if I have a litter of over 8 pups they will come within one week. If they decide my bitch is inable of feeding over 8 pups they will tell you to give some pups to another female for milk (this has a name?? I forgot...)! Over mu dead body they will!
Anyway, they WILL check for things like that, dew claws, ears, injuries, white marks/nails, my entire house. They even want to now if I rent or bought my house??!?! (for REAL!!)
Excuse my ignorance, but who is "they" and how do they know when a litter was born, etc.?

breeding club (http://www.hscd-ev.de), I have to report my litter within 3 days, or I will not get papers. The breeding club gives out the papers, so even if you are not a member, you'll have to comply

The good thing about a club is, you have a voice, and some things have/are being changed for the better as we speak

Schlussdibusti · Post by **Schlussdibusti** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:06 pm

Thanks. I visited the breed club's website and I have to admit, it's nice to see the planned litters and so forth. Of course it is typical German to go overboard and over-regulate everything.

But if it helps the breed and avoids any "mauscheln", it might be worth the hassle?

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:32 am

Marjolein wrote:HA! now Germany is really a nice country, plenty of space, nice people...BUT...rules are to be followed. And if anyone is in charge of checking the rules are followed...they will!
I get a check in the first 2 weeks the pups are born, if I have a litter of over 8 pups they will come within one week. If they decide my bitch is inable of feeding over 8 pups they will tell you to give some pups to another female for milk (this has a name?? I forgot...)! Over mu dead body they will!
Anyway, they WILL check for things like that, dew claws, ears, injuries, white marks/nails, my entire house. They even want to now if I rent or bought my house??!?! (for REAL!!)

Whut? R-u kidding?

None of their bleeping business whether I own or rent, and good grief, I can decide myself if pups need extra help or not, but like you, over my cold dead body will anyone decide for me to get some pups to a surrogate mom. Those krauts are nuts. Sorry to say.

In Germany breeding is taken very seriously, it's hardly fun with all the paperwork, the cuteness makes up for a lot, but you will not find al lot of "oh, just one litter" breeders of pedigree dogs overhere...

You make me appreciate the freedom over here again.

Not the freedom to mess up a breed, but the freedom to act like an independent person, making your own choices. I could see any 'authority' show up on my doorstep to check on my pups. I have absolutely nothing to hide, but by God, meet Mr Smith, Mr Wesson, Mr Glock, and all my lovely dogs and my lovely husband. You're trespassing! (And while I don't do that, in Texas, we can shoot first, ask questions later. No pedigree? Oh well!)

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:25 pm

I might move to the states one day

Christie M · Post by **Christie M** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:35 pm

vneerland wrote: You make me appreciate the freedom over here again. Not the freedom to mess up a breed, but the freedom to act like an independent person, making your own choices.)

Isn't it the breed clubs that often are responsible for ruining a breed? Don't they determine the strict guidelines that the dogs are judged on and often encourage traits that render a dog useless for their intended function? I'm thinking short fat labs, who would sink before being able to retrieve. Or GSD who sit while they walk. Frenchies who's faces are SO flat they can't be outside in heat. Mastiffs with all that skin (side note, people were congratulating an english mastiff's owners for a weight pull title. Someone posted that the modern mastiff is not meant for any sort of work. "Isn't it just enough to love them?? "

). Is it individuals who breed for certain things that create this? Or the breed club who decides what is desirable or not?

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:13 pm

You've got a point but still, breed clubs (at least in Holland and Germany) are controlled by their members. They get to vote on any descision made. So in the end, it IS the breeders too.

I always feel al lot of the bad stuff profit related

Short fat labs without ant energie fit in almost any family without a problem, where as a working line lab (they do excist and I LOVE those!) would cause trouble if not handled properly, so which one is easier to sell?

We have been changing things too, as members of the club. It actually happens too, even if the club board would not agree, but a mojority of the members want something, they have to make that change.

On GSD, I used to train at a combined SV and ADRK (rottweiler) club, so saw a lot of GSD and their breeders there. I remember very well, one day I was looking at this GSD male, doing well in sport, and all I could see were his hindlegs shaking all the time, see this weird way of walking, back sloped like a slide

As I was thinking this, his owner, stepped up to me (he had someone "do" his training for him so he could sit and drink beer ) and he said "nice dog eh, you do not look at physiques do you, but this dog has the most stunning physique ever!" I was going to say stuff, but decided it would be better to just keep my mouth shut. These people do not listen at all...
But yes, I DO pay attention to physique, and this dog can barely walk, will win every show and breed like mad because he has "KK1" (highest level of conformation), and SCHH3, and he will have loads of offspring, and will die at about 7 years old because he can no longer move, is in pain, and starts to act up towards his fabulous owner

All his offspring will live the same great life, and they all love this breed SO much...
They actually call a dog that has HD at the age of 9 months "broken". Not ill, or hurt, no, it's broken. So they will be dumped in a nice family home(in the best case), so they get to pay the vet in the years to come... great.
Moral of the story: the SV is their club, these people decide, it is in their mind too, this sick physique. I feel you cannot just say it's a club's fault and the breeders are forced in this direction, that's nonsens, if they all do not want this, they will not.

There are still breeders who do NOT breed these sloped-back dogs.

kchristy · Post by **kchristy** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:30 pm

I used to love German Shepherds, I actually thought of getting my son one, which led to me getting Melin. Now when I see them I find myself looking at nothing but their back. It's sad they are a beautiful, smart, loving breed but I swear their hind ends seem to be closer and closer to the ground every time I see one

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Marjolein wrote:You've got a point but still, breed clubs (at least in Holland and Germany) are controlled by their members. They get to vote on any descision made. So in the end, it IS the breeders too. I always feel al lot of the bad stuff profit related Short fat labs without ant energie fit in almost any family without a problem, where as a working line lab (they do excist and I LOVE those!) would cause trouble if not handled properly, so which one is easier to sell?

I think are part of the problem really lies in the way that the population accepts rules.

I did overdo it in my post above, but there is no way that it would be accepted at this side of the pond, that someone comes into your house to check a litter of pups. (4th Amendment.) What happened to the partnership between the breed club and its members? Shouldn't it be based on trust? Can we assume that all members have the same goal, to breed members of said breed? True, not ever persons standard of excellence is the same, but I will say that Christie has a point. It is the extreme control that will lead to the total lack of personal choices on the breeders behalf that leads to the decline of breeds. The crippled GSD's would have more fans if there had been room for the other type. But they did not get their "Korklasse" their club endorsement or their show placements. And so not many people accepted that look anymore and they all but disappeared? Leaving only the one type available that does not hold up like VonStephanitz envisioned.
The Dutch breed club NHC, is NOT above that at all. Fault a dog because it has more 'cheek' than they want? Well developed jaw muscles go with a working dog. That does not make the head a pitbull's head just yet. Or gripe about a female that is just a half an inch too tall? Call that masculine? Yes, I am sure that there were more conformational things "wrong" with those dogs, but I think the major fault was because they came from a working dog kennel.

Breed stewartship, yes, that's a good thing. Over regulating? That will lead to either lies or decline. Or both.

We have been changing things too, as members of the club. It actually happens too, even if the club board would not agree, but a majority of the members want something, they have to make that change.

Ya think? Did the NHC members manage to get a mandatoty hip rating for breeding stock passed yet?

Or a temperament test? Or a working test?

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:23 pm

vneerland wrote:
We have been changing things too, as members of the club. It actually happens too, even if the club board would not agree, but a majority of the members want something, they have to make that change.
Ya think? Did the NHC members manage to get a mandatoty hip rating for breeding stock passed yet? Or a temperament test? Or a working test?

I was talking about the German club in the above

But still, WE (members) got to vote on this mandatory hip rating, and half the members were pro, the other half against it. Afraid it would scare people to lend their male for just 1 litter...
Temperament test is in progress, will it do any good? I donnow...
And we have DNA checks on ALL pups in a litter now, because there is NO trust, for good reasons

I do not mind this check at 4 weeks old, everyone can come and look at my pups, in a way I find it good that female in really poor conditions are "saved" by this check, at least someone tells them to feed her a bit more or higher quality food, and provide some clean bedding...
But if I buy or rent my house?? that's another thing...

k9katet · Post by **k9katet** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:23 pm

Sugars Mom wrote:I don't really understand...if its no big deal to get rid of them when they are born, (to prevent pain from injury later on,) its almost like THAT is abuse!

Sugar gets mud and grass stuck in her's all the time when she plays in the field when its wet (its pretty much wet all winter long here) and, its a pain to cut the nail there its so curly and hard to get to. It would be much easier if she didn't have them. Front dews claws I'm talking about.

If she did not have dew claws then all the stress and the grass and dirt would fall on her inner toes. I believe they have dew claws for a reason and they are important.

My girls have them. I think Narc's were removed when he was a pup.

Sugars Mom · Post by **Sugars Mom** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:28 pm

Hmmm, all very interesting!

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