The UKC Premier is Over!

[Carole Field]

Hi there Christie, and hello to Sarah too! The reason this post irritated me so finally dawned on me when reading Christie’s message: Sportsmanship. I think what we are lacking in many of today’s competitive undertakings is “good sportsmanship”… when a person exhibits qualities highly regarded in sport, such as fairness, generosity, observance of the rules, and good humor when losing. Bad sportsmanship is defined, in my mind, as an inability to play by the rules, be civil with others especially one's opponent, and altogether be a nice person in regards to the sport.

When entering a canine conformation show, you are paying the judge for the privilege of their opinion about your dog on that day. No more, no less. It is not an indicator as to the worth of any particular dog as the variables are too great… and cannot possibly be measured by a few minutes in a ring. Each person prides their dog for many reasons. Some of those views are shared by other competitors and some are not. No one’s particular reasons for admiring an individual dog or a breed are more important than another’s. However, one does need to remember an intentional choice was made to play in the venue entered and according to the stated rules!!!

Now back to the sportsmanship issue. Why is it difficult for some to be “civil with an opponent” and “be a nice person in regards to the sport”??? I don’t know the answer to this question. I have recapped the details of our involvement with Ms. Lelli and Ms. Goetzelmann during the Premier Dog Show in Kalamazoo last week in search of an answer, and I have to admit to again being dumbfounded.

Ms. Goetzelmann’s dog took best of the top ten competition on Thursday; good for her and congratulations all around. On Friday, Ms. Lelli entered 2 dogs but only had 1 handler. We gladly volunteered a person to hold one of her dogs outside the ring while she was in the ring with her champion dog AND also provided her with a handler for her 1 class dog during the best of breed competition. Ms. Lelli’s longhaired champion was awarded best of champions and best of breed that day… again good for her and congratulations all around; except one thing was missing. Ms. Lelli neglected to thank Dave for holding her dog for 20 minutes outside the ring, and also did not thank Sarah for handling her class dog in the best of breed competition. Now I will readily admit that this help was offered in the spirit of good sportsmanship because another competitor was in need, but we somehow assumed everyone played by the same rules of good sportsmanship - but have now been proven woefully wrong. Sarah is the same handler whose dog “Luna” was awarded best of champions and best of breed on Saturday and therefore became the target of Ms. Goetzelmann’s castigation in the post that began this link.

I cannot report the happenings on Sunday as we skipped showing in conformation that day due to a scheduling conflict and we always choose a performance sport over conformation. The Premier Results listing shows Ms. Lelli won best of breed of over 1 junior female class dog… again good for her and congratulations.

Now the ever cheerful Sarah has chimed in on this post. Yes, she does have a dog out of our breeding that she has taken from Novice A to a UKC Super Dog in the span of 18 months. Those of us “old timers” that have actually been showing for decades in competitive dog sports know the importance of encouraging new members to the sport... for it is their life blood that will continue it long after we pass. Bravo to Sarah for exhibiting “good sportsmanship” in EVERY venue that she enters.

Carole Field
________________________________________________
These are the dogs that have left footprints in my heart:

GSD Oliver CD, CDX, UD, TDI
GSD Fala CGC, BH, CD, UCD, CDX, UCDX, TT, TC, TDI
GSD Britta CGC, CD
GSD Rudy CGC, BH, CD, UCD, CDX, UCDX, UD, TT, TC, TDI
GSD Nicky CGC, BH, PPD, FO, AOB, PA, OB1, P1, OBPD1, PD1, BTr, TT, TC, TDI
PRT Kia CGC, TDI, FO, AOB, PA, OBPD1, UFR, USR, UFCH, USCH
PRT Wrangler CH
DSD Épée CH, CGC, FO, AOB, PA, UNJ, UJJCH, TDI
DSD Snap CH, CGC, BH, URO1, URO2, UAGI, UCD, UJJ
PRT Spalding CA, UNJ, CAX
GSD Greer CH, CGC, UAGI, URO1

[Mike Hodgeman]

Ladies, ladies. You are not comparing two equal things, the long hair dutch shepherd and the short hair dutch shepherd are a breed apart. Neither one fits the standard, neither one looks like the other. The point of a standard is to have similar looking dogs. A working dog is a dying if not dead thing, being that atvs, 4 wheelers, and general machinery have replaced an animal earning its keep. Carole Field, careful on you definition of sportsmanship, as you, do not play by the rules either. Your conformation titled mr right now is a half breed, but you registered him as a dutch and register his litters as such. The rules of the UKC require 3 generations of striped dogs. At the end of the day, if you had working dogs, you'd be out working them and not on this forum arguing apples and oranges. As long as the dog does what you want it to do, who cares if its striped or solid. No dog is pure, they are all MUTTS

[Christie M]

Ladies, ladies. You are not comparing two equal things, the long hair dutch shepherd and the short hair dutch shepherd are a breed apart. Neither one fits the standard, neither one looks like the other. The point of a standard is to have similar looking dogs. A working dog is a dying if not dead thing, being that atvs, 4 wheelers, and general machinery have replaced an animal earning its keep. Carole Field, careful on you definition of sportsmanship, as you, do not play by the rules either. Your conformation titled mr right now is a half breed, but you registered him as a dutch and register his litters as such. The rules of the UKC require 3 generations of striped dogs. At the end of the day, if you had working dogs, you'd be out working them and not on this forum arguing apples and oranges. As long as the dog does what you want it to do, who cares if its striped or solid. No dog is pure, they are all MUTTS

Mike, welcome to the forum. Thank you for posting your opinion and we look forward to future contributions.

Please take a moment and post an intro in the New Members Section and also create a signature that includes your name. It helps all us keep each other straight.

[roxanne]

Congratulations to all the winners. Me and my mix are staying out of the debate.

[Drizlaru]

I knew that popcorn would come in handy.

Ok, I'll give my 2 just because well, I can.

After all this discussion of purebreds and muddy puddles, and longhaired/shorthaired wizards.
I've come to the conclusion that as long as each competitor abides by the stated rules and regulations for each event, class, breed standard ... teeth color and nail size. Does it really matter as long as everyone has fun at the event, does their best, and despite winning or loosing has a good time? I know what its like to compete, it's giving the winner their credit due in a good sportsmanship like manner and trying harder next time is how it should go. Afterall, we would expect the same.

I have a funny definition of a "working dog". A working dog is any dog that can conduct a meaningful task to ease the work load of their handler. If you think about all the different types of "working dogs", it fits them all, including service dogs.

By UKC, FCI, and ABCDEFG definition , sure alot of people have "purebred" dutch shepherds. Unfortunately, by the true definition of "purebred", there is no such dog on the planet, no matter how small, there always a mix.

[Marjolein]

*gets out the popcorn*

*joins with a large coke and bowl of m&m's*


mhhh, didn't we have this discussion before somewhere??

I've always bragged my Dingo, who is as "pure-bred" as it gets, has some REAL KNPV blood in him waaaaaaaaay back, but still I have proof of that, I think

[Drizlaru]

*gets out the popcorn*

*joins with a large coke and bowl of m&m's*


mhhh, didn't we have this discussion before somewhere??

I've always bragged my Dingo, who is as "pure-bred" as it gets, has some REAL KNPV blood in him waaaaaaaaay back, but still I have proof of that, I think

How's that saying go ... a dingo ate my baby? Not that you've EVER heard that one before!

Leo is KNPV as well and , has Rocky van Leeuwen as a grandfather on his mothers side (If I understand it correctly). No wonder he bounces off the walls, I've never seen a pup that can run on ALL sides of the inside of the crate before. I bet if my camera is fast enough I could get him upside down.

So with that being said, I'll join you for that drink. And please don't tell Dingo that I hid his ball in the freezer.

And to everyone and anyone that wants to continue the argument. Please allow me to refresh my popcorn.

[vneerland]

Hi there! My name is Sarah. I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I chose this thread for my first post because my dog was mentioned.

Welcome Sarah and beautiful Luna.

A working dog is a dying if not dead thing, being that atvs, 4 wheelers, and general machinery have replaced an animal earning its keep.

Absolutely! I go to work with my ATV that sniffs out drugs. They do mine detection with 4 wheelers, and I think the police prefers to use bulldozers to track and catch fugitives, since dogs tend to shed in the back of the patrol cars.

I've always bragged my Dingo, who is as "pure-bred" as it gets, has some REAL KNPV blood in him waaaaaaaaay back, but still I have proof of that, I think

That lone KNPV ancestors of Dingo, wonder if he happened before 1975 when they still judged dogs on contents, not on paperwork?

And to everyone and anyone that wants to continue the argument. Please allow me to refresh my popcorn.

I doubt the discussion has far to go from there. The instigator bowed out, quoting scriptures "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn and tear you to pieces" The saying the Dutch have for that is "Paarlen voor de zwijnen" e.i wasted effort. That happens to be the way I feel about it too. There is no fix for closed mindedness.

[Mike Hodgeman]

Vneerland, I was of course referring to the origin of the working dog, in which that it bears the name, SHEPHERD. Gasoline has replaced SHEPHERDS. There are many definitions of working, so again, this discussion is not arguing like things. You can't say it isn't a working dog because it doesn't have ancestors that were all striped that herded. As you mention, there are a variety of tasks that a dog can do to be considered working, but they do not need to look like or act like the OG shepherd. This thread has come to an end because the aggressors are tucking their tails because they've realized their kennel is full of mixes. Oh the horror!

[syzygy]

"A working dog is a dying if not dead thing, being that atvs, 4 wheelers, and general machinery have replaced an animal earning its keep."

OK, I have been quiet so far, not wanting to contribute to the show dog folks' inflated sense of importance, or respond to the incredible lack of taste and rudeness that started this thread...but this really was the straw that broke the camel's back. What planet are you from? In a short minute-long e-mail I sent to Judith last night after reading this with open-mouthed astonishment, I casually listed K-9's, military dogs, SAR and recovery dogs, search dogs of all kinds--bomb dogs, gunpowder dogs, even truffle, termite, bedbug, and accelerant dogs, herding dogs, service dogs, sled dogs, tracking dogs, general farm dogs, hunting dogs, vermin dogs, guard dogs, barge dogs, draft dogs...and I have not even stopped to really think about the hundred other ways dogs serve mankind. All of the above are working dogs. I don't think your ATV will find truffles, either, or recover the injured from earthquake rubble, or track that lost child through the woods at night, or....

Luna is beautiful, BTW! I have a distant cousin--granddaughter of Yaska and Arras. She is a detection dog and yes...a UKC champion. With performance titles in the FUN things shows offer. But her foremost contribution is the working skills. I would not trade her or her cousin for the world. The show stuff is an amusing hobby and I am not in the habit of bragging on them. I am proud of them, yes, but they are basically insignificant to the work she does. If the pure bred folks get their way, I would not have been able to have the pleasure of showing off in the ring, lol, though they are as pure bred as any working dog landrace can or SHOULD be. They are from KNPV lines, and they are quite proud of it.

The point of all of this is that the "pure bred" idea is a recent affectation that arose around the turn of the 19th-to-20th century, and was invented to support the perceived value of the conformation show dog. No other reason. Study history. And in the long run, the closed gene pool that this incredibly damaging conceit has promoted has now proven to be genetically disastrous to the "purebred" show dog for very valid and increasingly obvious reasons to the scientific community. Too detailed to go into the genetics of it here, and I doubt the folks with dogs that can do nothing else but look pretty in a show ring would care as long as they get today's accolades and their ribbons--and can attempt to eliminate any real competition in order to do so. Long term health and working ability don't mean a thing to them. The "pure bred" dog is a status symbol to far too many conformation show people.

Our concern with a landrace that has a limited gene pool is preserving what this breed does best--work. No, the working dog is not dead or dying, unless the show people get control, and that is our job--to keep our wonderful dogs from the near-extinction the outdated "pure bred" concept has doomed so many other breeds to. Many of those breeds are now resorting to outcrosses in a desperate attempt to recover what they have lost through years of closed gene pools. Poor health and the loss of working ability are the last things we need to impose on the Dutch Shepherd.

Ellisa



PS just saw this come in

"This thread has come to an end because the aggressors are tucking their tails because they've realized their kennel is full of mixes. Oh the horror!"

What new planet are you now on? Mix? Do you not get it? That a working breed is ALWAYS a work in progress? That "mixing" is vital to health? That all breeds are originally created by "mixes" of local dogs who can do a job? That they are SHEPHERD'S dogs, in other words PROTECTORS and GUARDIANS of shepherd and flock, not sorters? That nobody gives a darn if there may be a similar dog of a different color back there if it performs the function and is of almost identical origin? Do you KNOW anything about the real Dutch Shepherd?

Nobody is horrified. We just have had enough of the ignorance and most of us are going outdoors to work our healthy, talented dogs, thank you.

[Mike Hodgeman]

I'm on planet sarcasm. Of course you need outside blood, look at what closed books has done to the Beauceron. I will change my post from working to herding so you can go back to your planet. I was merely pointing out that Carole Field, who boasts of her "purebred" dogs, in fact, does not have what she claims to have. Carole was unfairly railing the other Carole for poor sportsmanship and not following the rules.

[Katie K]

Hi! I joined this forum just so I could say CONGRATULATIONS to my good friend Sarah Zipp on SUPER DOG status with Luna!!1 range: We both started as first timers around the same time, and I've been fortunate enough to have her by my side as we both grow in the various sports and venues (and our number of dogs grow! hehe ). Great job, Sarah!! As with all accomplishments, there will be haters out there. Keep your head high.

Vneerland - Are you THE Van Neerland that is in every dutch shep pedigree I've ever seen? Like foundation of??

[leih merigian]

Congratulations, Sarah!

You have a great attitude and a beautiful dog! I'm glad you won

[Drizlaru]

Found it! and a

[alspyce]

Now that we have agreed to disagree-----can we go back to playing nice??

[vneerland]

Hi! I joined this forum just so I could say CONGRATULATIONS to my good friend Sarah Zipp on SUPER DOG status with Luna!!1 range: We both started as first timers around the same time, and I've been fortunate enough to have her by my side as we both grow in the various sports and venues (and our number of dogs grow! hehe ). Great job, Sarah!! As with all accomplishments, there will be haters out there. Keep your head high.

Vneerland - Are you THE Van Neerland that is in every dutch shep pedigree I've ever seen? Like foundation of??

Welcome Katie. Please stick around and participate, but if you could post a short intro in the new member section and create a signature, you could keep us all straight about the who is who. Tell us about your dogs!

I am indeed the owner of the van Neerland Kennel name. They may not be in every DS pedigree, but I was fortunate enough to have some nice dogs, and some did creep into many a pedigree, yes.