Thinking about adopting

[hoosierpat]

I recently lost my 10 year old German Shepherd to lymphoma. He was one of the best dogs anyone could ever ask for. I got him from a shelter as a 10 week old puppy after fostering about 30 dogs trying to find the right one. I was sure that I was going to wait a while, maybe a year, till I got another dog. My fiance and I pretty much will only agree on another Shepherd as we both love their temperment, intelligence, loyalty, and obedience.

Today I made a mistake and walked into the local humane society on a whim. There was the usual assortment of pit bulls and yappy small dogs (the shelter's in a rough area). In the second to last cage in the last room there was a fairly large shepherd mix that was sitting down and looking calmly out of the cage with those brown shepherd eyes. He wasn't barking, he wasn't shaking, he was sitting and then he started playing with his toy.

I asked the receptionist about him and if I could have him brought out of the cage to socialize with. They told me that he was 4 years old and not well trained and asked if I had ever had a shepherd before. I said yes and one of the girls went into the room and a couple of minutes later was dragged out by the dog on a leash with a choke collar on. Before she even made it through the door, I grabbed the leash from her and stopped the dog in its tracks. I thought they were going to put me in a room with him but they told me to take him out for a walk. I calmed him down as much as I could before we walked out the door and then we started strolling. The dog was immediately obedient to the choke collar (when it was used properly) and required very few corrective actions. In short, he was immediately trainable, I think I even might have taught him to sit on command during the 45 minutes I was with him. Needless to say, everyone in the shelter was shocked by his new behavior.

He really stole my heart and reminded me of my shepherd. He was clearly very much shepherd in shape, behavior, and size but I figured he was mixed with something because he was brindled over a lot of his body and his coat was short and seemed to be all one type of hair, unlike my shepherd. I knew that there were several other types of Belgian shepherd dogs with different color patterns so I figured he may have some of them in him. Anyway, I went home and started looking online and realized that he pretty clearly has to be a Dutch Shepherd. Shorter muzzle than my GSD, white flash on the chest, brindled, short coated, and incredibly intelligent.

I am now going back with my fiance on Monday to have her check him out. It's not a great time to be getting a dog that is certain to have a lack of training and need quite a bit of retraining in the house, on the leash, and maybe with other dogs, but when do things ever happen at the right time?

I'm hoping for some input before I go back to see him on Monday. Maybe people who have had GSD's and DS's could give me an idea of what differences to expect. I'm so hooked on getting him that I feel like I might be making a rash decision. I put a pic below, any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Pat B.

CAM00167.jpg (70.01 KiB) Viewed 6791 times

[LyonsFamily]

Definitely looks like a Dutch to me. In comparison to the GSD, the DS a lot more active and IME will test you a whole lot more, with the exception of working line Germans (most in America aren't). It may be true that there isn't a perfect time for adding the new dog, but with a DS, the timing has to be a little more perfect than other breeds.

Making the decision to take him home should be based on how much time and experience you have dedicated to train a high drive dog that may not have had the best past. Our typical day consists of at least 2-3 hours of exercise, obedience, and some sort of sport work. I know Odin is capable to do a whole lot more, and this amount of work frustrates him sometimes. While there are a variety of different personalities, these dogs aren't for everyone. Without a job, they get anxious and can get out of hand.

There are a few members on the board that have both Germans and Dutch at the same time, so they may be able to provide more direct comparisons. Good luck with your decision, and if you decide not to get him, try contacting the North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue to see if they can get him into their program or courtesy listed.

[feraloup]

I don't have a ton of experience with the Dutchies, yet, I just got my first one about 2 weeks ago, but I've had 2 GSDs before, as well as mixed breeds and have also worked in kennels and have worked with "difficult" and "high-drive" dogs. (My own pitbull/New Guinea Singin Dog was an acid test for working with over-the-top intelligence, houdini-like containment issues and high prey drive, *lol* compared to her puppyhood, so far my DS is mellow by comparison!)

Like Odin's mom pointed out, truly consider whether you have the time and commitment (and talk over with your fiancee!) To really give this dog the mental and physical stimulation he will need to thrive.

That being said, I also don't believe in coincidence, and as you said, no time is ever realllly "the perfect time" life just doesn't operate that way. Most of my dogs just landed in my lap, in a manner of speaking, and my new DS is the first time I ever actively prepared for and sought out a dog. Every other one has been a twist of circumstance and I'd no go back and change any of it.

You went into that shelter and that dog was there and you "clicked" with him in just such a way... Maybe that was fate. Talk to the NADSR people, they are on this board, and talk with other DS people, I've found everyone on this board in my recent time here to be very informative, supportive, and great help. Make an informed and consciencsious decision. After all, it wouldn't be fair to him or you to take him in if you're not ready to take the time and effort he deserves, but I've a feeling you're taking this guy home.

[Schlussdibusti]

Some things are meant to be...........

I got my Marco out of the local shelter too. When I walked up to his kennel, the other dogs were barking like crazy, he was very calm and looked at me like "what took you so long, mom".

Every new dog will be a challenge of some sort or another. Puppies are cute, but the house breaking, etc. can be a challenge. The advantage with an adult dog is "what you see is what you get".

If your heart speaks, listen.

[debmac]

I adopted a Dutch female a month ago. She is the light of my life. Her adaptability to training is incredible- show her once and she has it. Yes, she does require a lot of exercise, but that is a good thing for me. Perhaps your old dog led you to this one?? I'm sure my Lex sent Tess to me.
Good luck.
Deb

[Choochi]

If you're unsure, does that shelter have a foster program? Maybe you could foster that boy, that could be an easier way to ease into having a dog in your life again without making the full emotional commitment. NADSR are also always in need of foster homes so that would be another option for you to get to know the breed better, help some lives, and have the dog element back in your life.

He does look a lot like a DS. How are they in comparison to the GSDs.... which types of GSDs are we talking about? Compared to some of the NA or show type GSDs I have known it's a world of difference in terms of having more intelligence, personality, etc. If comparing to some of the working line GSDs, they're much more alike although in my experience still possibly more intelligent and quicker to pick up things. The DS can range very much between individuals, some are very high energy nut bars while some do fine with a moderate amount of exercise, so will depend on the individual in front of you.

[hoosierpat]

I'm not really that worried about the energy level, I dealt with that for almost 4 years until my GSD mellowed out. I've always said that with my next shepherd I wanted to find it some sort of intensive training that I could work with it on. I regretted not doing that with my GSD but I was in my early 20s when I got him and I didn't have the time or resources to do it. I guess another question would be, are DS ok as just a house dog? He would get plenty of exercise and mentally challenging activity but I'm not sure that I want a dog that is bite trained or any other military use training. I have a friend that has border collies and sheep and she's fairly accomplished in herding trial throughout the US and Canada and her dogs are so singularly focused on herding that they really aren't good as companion dogs. I like a dog that will protect my family, lounge around with me, take long walks or runs or bike rides without tiring, and learn quickly. If he has so much energy that I have to find him a job, that will be ok but I don't want a dog with such a singular focus on work that they can't be companionable.

[Christie M]

All of my Dutch Shepherds are companions first, working dogs second. They are perfectly capable of being nothing more than a pet IF you are very attentive to their needs for physical AND mental stimulation. Dealing with energy is one thing (although it is a very important thing). And the energy of a young GSD is not always comparable to that of a young (or adolescent....or sometimes adult) DS. But the real art is in keeping them mentally stimulated. They need a job of some sort. It doesn't have to be formal bite training, or agility, or any sport. But you have to engage their brain. If you don't they will find an intellectual challenge to solve....and we rarely like their decisions (ie - how to rearrange the furniture, in much smaller pieces). So daily interaction in a mentally stimulating way is very, very important.

[hoosierpat]

Fortunately, my SO and I work opposite schedules so there will be someone home with the dog almost 24/7 for the first few weeks or so. But I completely understand them creating intellectual challenges for themselves. My GSD solved thousands of dollars worth of challenges when he was young. How are they off leash? I obviously won't be testing those grounds until I am 100% confident that I understand his personality and he understands our relationship but that is important to me as I usually just let the dogs out the back door to go to the bathroom and they come back when they're done (no fence in yard).

[LyonsFamily]

Fortunately, my SO and I work opposite schedules so there will be someone home with the dog almost 24/7 for the first few weeks or so. But I completely understand them creating intellectual challenges for themselves. My GSD solved thousands of dollars worth of challenges when he was young. How are they off leash? I obviously won't be testing those grounds until I am 100% confident that I understand his personality and he understands our relationship but that is important to me as I usually just let the dogs out the back door to go to the bathroom and they come back when they're done (no fence in yard).

As far as the off leash aspect, that has a lot to do with training. Mine is great off leash in a yard or field, and getting decent at off leash obedience with distractions of other people and dogs, but he's never allowed out without me there watching him, at least in the city where I live. My parents have 10 acres in the middle of nowhere with farm fields all around and he'd spend all day within 100 feet of the front door even if we're not out there with him.

I grew up with bird dogs that have a mind of their own, even with a recall and boundary training, they'll follow a bird anywhere if left out alone unless they're in a fence or under voice/remote collar control. I don't find that Odin is anything like these dog. He much prefers to be with his people. He may bolt if someone other than me or my husband was watching him, he did it for my mom once, but came back as soon as my husband showed up. Although, there are quite a few known to run. They do have a high prey drive, and may let a chase get the best of them. Just ask johninny about the search for the formerly named "Poncho."

[Marjolein]

Welcome

[hoosierpat]

Well we stopped at the shelter again today, or I should say again for me and the first time for my fiancee. He was good again but we definitely discovered his intensity and drive. We brought him into a little room that was set up like a living room to socialize with him off leash. I now understand when people are talking about their DS's "ball". He found a tennis ball in the room and just grabbed it and that was that. He had such singular focus on the ball that it was hard to get his attention. I was able to take the ball out of his mouth after a struggle and he was never aggressive towards me when I was taking the ball from him, he just would move his head around trying not to let me get it. He also likes to get up on on his hind legs and search for things on surfaces well above his head. There's an awful lot of energy and focus that is going to have to be directed elsewhere in order for him to be an acceptable house dog. What kind of activities have those of you who have adopted older dogs with this kind of undirected energy engaged the dog in? I'm concerned about the first few weeks as I try to acclimate the dog to a new household and what kind of things I can do to keep him busy. He will clearly need a job to do to keep him out of trouble. Can anyone give me a link to different types of training, I'm thinking that he's really suited for agility or search and rescue training with the way he was acting.

Any info would help. I just need to figure out if I can make it through the first few weeks with him, they will be the hardest.

TIA

[johninny]

well, i had just finished writing a reply as long as your original post - and i thought it was truly inspired. then did something stupid the site did not like and it went away - just like that! too late to repeat even if i could remember what i said. so i will attempt highlights:
GO FOR IT as your initial gut said. yes, you have determined that he is high-drive on your follow-up visit, but you do know shepherds, so you have some relevant experience. but your 1st meeting with him is a taste of life ahead. dogs like this are few and far between; their intelligence is probably beyond anything you are prepared for as it is unlike any other breed [ other than mals]. they can have a profound and positive effect on your life. if you are not prepared for profundity, then, yes, maybe skip this adoption; but otherwise, no dog learns faster - or does mind-melds and bonds like you would expect of a perfect spouse on your 50th wedding anniversary. depending on the dog [ where on the already-elevated scale of high attention to humans he is], the high drive could be an obnoxious pain in the ass for a while, but your first meeting with him is very encouraging on this score. remember, this is a high drive dog [ mentally, importantly, more than physically ] who is cooped up and ignored 24 hours a day. the effect on any intelligent being - as documented recently by the NYTimes - is awesome.
just weeks ago, i brought back a LOW drive DS from a shelter in Newburgh, IN. low drive, but high when wildlife of any size is concerned - and a real escape artist. he went missing from the shelter for 13 days. once i drove him back home arriving at night, he was over my 4 ft fence within 20 min [ 4 seconds of intention and effort], but has not attempted that since he realized by the next morning this is where his human [ and he] lives. barring distractions, he probably would not run off without a fence now, but i would not trust that he has the discipline and instincts to resist passing dogs, people , wildlife, etc. it will take time to get there. whereas, my previous DS, was well-bonded with plenty of self-control by the time he reached this same, then un-fenced yard and never once ventured past the property line [ THOUGH THAT ASSUREDLY WOULD NOT BE TRUE IF I LEFT HOME. THEN, I WOULD NOT EVEN COUNT ON A FENCE. that is a sure invitation to a DS to go hunting for his person. on the rare occasion i left the house without TD, he would be inside.] the new SAKIMA [ aka Poncho] has jumped the fence in seconds of me being outside the fence and out-of-sight. i would be hard-pressed to do anything about that.
i have already been walking Sakima off-leash on the beach and quieter roads with great success, but no where near the precision it would take to even attempt that in nyc.
these dogs are so focused [ intelligently so, not obsessively ] on their humans, that there is no dog better suited to off-leash strolls in the right setting. but what that right setting is depends on the dog, the depth of communicative bond, and your knowledge of and preparedness for the risks, etc. a decent dose of paranoia is in order any time off-leash is contemplated out of a country setting even with a well-bonded dog. the bonding comes very rapidly, developing exponentially over a few weeks. then the training/learning is so fast.
for my old dog Trace, also a rescue, teaching anything was a one-time event. though very very high drive, he was also extraordinarily aware of human desires and intentions. for 3700 of his days he walked off-leash in manhattan, including the most crowded, dangerous and unfamiliar places imaginable. he could be trusted to perform equally well in any new setting indoors or out - and did experience myriad central city and country settings from miami beach to canada, and a constant stream of new indoor experiences including movie premiers, classical and other music concerts, manhattan nightclub settings,nyc art auction rooms, restaurants, grocery stores, and many dinner and cocktail parties away from home. you cannot train specifically for all that. i was often much more confused than he was. but it becomes possible when you and the dog have perfected 1)trust and 2)quick and easy communication. the building blocks are consistency of communication and enough time for him to internalize the absolute rules necessary for his safety and shared certainty of the inviolability of those rules [i.e., no cat or squirrel exceptions! which means the rules internalized must super-cede even on a second-to-second basis - at least when in the city - his most basic high drive instincts]
if you do go for this adoption, i would be happy to communicate privately with you to help assess him and to share my experiences. and then, there are the real geniuses on this site that really know DS training and techniques for correcting objectionable habits.
here's hoping for the DS and you!

[hoosierpat]

John,

Thanks for that very thorough reply. It makes me feel much better about going for it. I'm sure that I'll be contacting you for more advice, thanks for the offer. Also, I totally sympathize with the long response being deleted. If you take too long the forum software logs you out and when you hit reply everything disappears. I found that out the hard way with my original post and learned that after I wrote a long reply it was best to highlight the text and copy it before hitting submit, just in case. I am going to need a lot of help with this guy I think. BTW, his name is Tonto, although he really doesn't respond to it, so that's going to have to change to something with a similar sound and syllable count. I am most concerned about the first couple weeks as we learn each others ins and outs and what will be tolerated and what won't be. The jumping on furniture and getting up onto the counter will have to be corrected very quickly or there will be problems around the house.

I live in what I would consider the furthest southern suburb of Chicago and really, it's the country. I have a baptist church behind my backyard and then corn and soy fields for as far as you can see. Unfortunately, I'm on the main drag on the most northern part of town so there is a lot of traffic in the street in front of the house. I've seen 2 dogs killed in front of my house in the last year and half. I would allow my shepherd to come with me to get the mail off leash because he was that attentive and obedient to my verbal commands. I do have a large kennel with 10 foot fencing so I'll be able to have him outside without worrying about him and I have a 30 foot leash that I can give him a little freedom on as we learn to obey each other. I have a few really good, usually empty, huge dog parks around me but they're kind of a hike so I won't be able to get to them everyday, especially when it's dark out when I get home.

Does anyone have any recommendations about toys that will challenge and keep the dog busy as well has holding up to chewing and tearing? He seems pretty content with a tennis ball, he even amuses himself by popping it up in the air with his paw and grabbing it out of the air with his mouth. I think that I want to keep the ball for a reward activity though, and not something that he has all the time. I need like the equivalent of a rubix cube for this dog. Any suggestions?

I'm 90% certain that we are going to pick him up on Saturday. Unfortunately, I have to leave him there until then because I am not prepared for him yet and I won't have time to put into him until then. I can go Saturday and bring our other dogs to make sure everything is ok and then I will have all weekend to work with him before leaving him with my fiancee during the day while I'm working.

I'll keep everyone updated and let you know how it goes.

Pat

[Choochi]

I just read that you're in the Chicago area. You're very lucky to have some great working dog trainers around you if you ever decide to pursue that. They would also be great resources just for helping you deal with average day to day stuff with a DS as they're familiar obviously with high drive working breeds.

Look into nosework training, that's some thing you could do fairly easily, and can be a great mental challenge for a high drive dog that will also utilize his searching abilities. Rescue work isn't exactly a hobby. You either commit to it or you don't. It's not a sport, people's lives can be on the line. Local SAR guy once told me he gets lots of people come out to him with their pets with good intentions and convinced that their dog "has it", but they loose interest (or are not realistic about their dog's abilities) quickly after just a few training sessions. Any type of SAR work takes a great amount of dedication, him and his team train rain or shine for hours a few times per week. They help people who are just looking for an activity with their dog get into tracking, etc but you really have to have a dog with what it takes and have to show your ability to commit before he will even consider you for SAR work.

And how does one live with a crazy dog like what you've described? That's a funny question to me... I like them this way, it's entertaining to me and their energy and zest for life brings a smile to my face. I teach them some boundaries and they obey well but I like my little brindle crazies being just that. Mine actually settle very well I find when they need to so I don't consider them nuisance to normal house life as it is for me at all. As mentioned, do keep in mind what you saw was a dog that is kept in a kennel around the clock finally getting a break and likely burning off some steam. He will likely act calmer once you take that edge off with some regular exercise and attention.

[hoosierpat]

Choochi,

I've been doing a lot of research on more advanced training and I'm really still up in the air about what I would like to do. I've ruled out schutzhund because I want my dog to be approachable in all respects and I can't chance him snapping at somebody because he has been encouraged to do so in training. I understand that the whole point of schutzhund is training them when and how to act but it's just unnecessary for me. I don't think the search and rescue was really what I meant when I said that. I think nosework was what I was looking for.

I agree 100% about the kennel situation. He calms down by a factor of 10 the second I get him out the door of the shelter. But there's no way to know just how calm he'll be at home quite yet. Once I take him, he's mine, I don't return things because they don't work for me, I adjust to make them work so it is a concern but I'm growing less concerned about it every day. There's definitely going to be an awful lot of long walks in the coming months, too bad it's not the summer

My fiancee was really opposed to getting him before she met him and last night she was sitting on the couch looking up Dutch names for him. I think she's been swayed.

[felixone123]

I think you will be fine. Just look at it as an adventure!!

We have 2 DS from NADSR. Odin is our first ever dutch. He will be with us a year the end of Dec. We got him as an adult, so he was calmer than a puppy. We recently got Kai about 5 months ago. He was 6 mo when we got him. He has good crazy energy and amazing ball/frisbee drive - lol!! He is so easy to train cause he's a genius!!

My point is, we are first time dutch owners with then very little training under our belts and we did just fine. We got the training we needed with someone who knows the breed and it has made all the difference in the world. We are having so much fun with our fur babies. However, it does take love, commitment and patience.

Oh and thanks for rescuing!!! and you will definitely need some of these

[leih merigian]

John,

You haven't mentioned crates at all, but you may want to consider using a crate or two with him for his first period of time at your home. If he can't be directly supervised, crate him, and of course, give him enough exercise and interaction when he's out. This will accomplish a lot of things, but a big one is he won't be able to get into any trouble when you or your fiance don't have your eyeballs on him or get otherwise distracted (or have to take a shower, etc.).

You mentioned "using a choke chain collar" properly in your first post. Opinions vary, but I abhore choke chains. One thing you will quickly find is that your new DS, should you bring him home, responds much better to the carrot than the stick; positive reinforcement of behaviors that you want to see repeated rather than correcting behaviors you don't like, and using positive training methods in general.

I had a very high drive, working lines GSD. The differences between her and my 2 year old DS are more in temperament and personality, but both were/are incredibly smart, needed a lot of exercise and mental stimulation, and made great companions with enough of what they need taken care of. My GSD was a little more responsible than my DS, but my DS is only two years old and stil maturing .

Good luck!

[bshaver]

Two great websites with lots of stimulating dog toys are:
http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fusea ... ry.display - Clean Run
www.clickertraining.com

Clicker training makes dog training more enjoyable and easier than traditional methods. (You don't have to use a clicker if you don't like them - you can also use a marker word). The clickertraining.com also has lots of info on clicker training. Another great website with detailed info on clicker training is Sue Ailsby's levels training. The original Levels are a comprehensive free clicker book online:
http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/ - go to Writing, and to Levels (original) and you can find the entire program. The new levels are sold in book format. If you go to youtube, many of her followers have videotaped their levels accomplishments.
Also, lots of great training info at www.clickersolutions.com
Trick training is great for mental stimulation especially on bad weather days. Great inspiration/sites to check out:
http://silvia.trkman.net/
http://dogmantics.com/ also see Emily's youtube videos: kikopup: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup
Tab 289 has nice youtube training videos as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1ACvaU2jzQ
Nothing more fun than clicker training a smart active dog!
Good luck!

[LyonsFamily]

John,
I live in what I would consider the furthest southern suburb of Chicago and really, it's the country. I have a baptist church behind my backyard and then corn and soy fields for as far as you can see.

Pat

Oh are you anywhere near Crete? My mom grew up there and my dad lived in Steger. I currently live in the city of Chicago (near white sox park), and there's a tremendous DS/mal community here. If you're close enough, there's a group of us that do trails and hikes together in the suburbs to work on training and socializing. Right now, it consists of my DS, 2 malinoiss, and a grumpy Shiba. If you're interested in agility, I have some of the equipment we occasionally bring too.