Wow, protective instincts are definitely there...

[feraloup]

I had an interesting experience Christmas eve. My son was at his dad's, and my finacee and I were off to his dad's house for dinner with his family, and I decided to take Mokume and Maiyou for a romp at a nearbye park so they could let off steam before being crated all through our visit.

There was a gentleman there in the park with two off-leash hounds. Handsome, handsome, good-looking big ol' redbone hounds.

One of them was absolutely obnoxious. Maiyou haughtily ignored him and went about her business as though he were invisible, even though he was baroo-ing loudly in her face. Poor Moko, though, was quite intimidated. So, not getting any gratifying response from Maiyou, he focused all of his baying at little Mokume. The other young hound was kind of submissively interested in saying hello, but this bigger guy just wouldn't shut up. He'd back off a little, but the moment Moko would make even a slight movement in any direction the hound was back in his face, hovering over him and hollering in his face.

Mokume backed under a bench and wasn't running away, but you could tell he wasn't sure what to do and was feeling really uncomfortable. He didn't engage the other dog, and he didn't run off, and looked to me for direction, I was reaching into my pocket for my doo-doo bags and calling to the hound owner to control his dog, when the hound jumped up on me. It wasn't aggressive, I think he could smell treats in my pocket and thought I was reaching for those, well, the hound jumped on me as I was digging in my pocket and before I knew what was happening Moko had flipped a switch and went from trembling uncertainly under the bench to a midair launch right AT this big hound with a big-boy growl like I have never heard from him before! As much as he was intimidated by this dog, the second the hound appeared to be a threat to ME Moko did not like it one bit! I managed to hook his collar in midair and catch him in my arms, and by this time the hound-owner had gotten over to us and got his dog on a leash, and no harm done (although, just now in typing this I suddenly wonder if this might have been the catalyst for my recent back spasm...) But it was quite interesting to me to observe how protective Mokume can be!

Yikes. I'll be very carefully observing his interactions with any other dogs we meet, in the hopes that this won't lead to an over-defensive "get them before they get us" fear-aggression issue... But so far he seems to be doing all the right things and this was an isolated incident of him responding to a percieved threat. Wow, though. Gotta say I was surprised and impressed to see that, as he'd seemed thoroughly cowed by this big strange loud dog until the moment he jumped up on me! Then suddenly my trembling uncertain puppy went all slavering, roaring, hackling wolf!

[johninny]

hi Autumn,

hope you had a good Christmas... and that are feeling better. that back thing has happened all my life to me. probably was that incident - sudden tension AND physical strain will really do it.

yes, it is amazing how these dogs' protection instincts over-rule everything else - even in a sweet puppy like Moko. Saki is now over 8 mos old and not [ with me at least] had any moment like this and he is on the submissive side [ not what i am used to], but i have 0 doubt he would not fail to provide any level of guarding or protection that was really necessary.
i think you also never have to worry about Moko being protective when needed. some people like dogs that are regularly intimidating or overly protective. i want my dog to lay back til guarding or in the extreme attacking are clearly called for - like clark kent - a seemingly normal dog hopefully 100% of the time but can turn into a raging ninja when absolutely called for. the key is having a great dog - which i think you do - that has such broad experience of life's events [ including all those that might LOOK/SEEM dicey at first blush] that the dog is capable of holding back, observing, exercising great judgement, and taking cues from you.
moko is so smart, there is no way moko will not guard and protect when necessary. if i am right, that is ALL you want in this regard .
so, you might want to be proactive if there are friendly but unknown to moko neighbor dogs around to show that it is ok for non-threatening dogs to be [overly] friendly with you. moko over time would still act to restrain dogs that YOU think are too forward [ moko will pick up your feelings ], but needs to learn [ will figure out ]that there are less urgent/aggressive ways to achieve that goal.

please do not take this as me believing you have a problem. you don't. i think most people will applaud - and i am no exception - but that is the breed. the tricky part for us normal ''family-dog'' owners of DS is to NOT LET THE PROTECTION STUFF EVER BECOME SOMETHING THAT WORRIES US. it should only be comforting. and it is easier to keep those impulses in the bottle than to try to put them back in once they have become habit. being a DS, you will always know that even 9 years down the road, Moko would uncork the bottle in an instant if called for.

again, CONGRATULATIONS ON SUCH A GREAT PUPPY. LUCKY PUPPY and LUCKY YOU! and so beautiful !
HAPPY NEW YEAR !

[katm4110]

What a good boy! I too am surprised at Stella's protective instinct. It's a good thing you know now that he may need some socialization with other dogs while he's so young! It's so stressful worrying about running in to other dogs on our walks!

[feraloup]

Thanks for the votes of confidence. I'm not really too worried, yet, he's young and he does live with another dog, tomorrow we're going to have a "playdate" at my old trainer's house with her dogs in a safe setting and let her meet him and talk about some training goals. It'll also be fun for her to see Maiyou, who she hasn't seen in many years. Her dogs are all very well socialized and accustomed to interacting with many other dogs of all sizes and temperaments, so it's a safe place to let him interact with new dogs and hopefully have some positive experiences.

Maiyou tends to grump at him a lot in the house, and when outside, she'll try to engage him in play, but because she's so irritable inside he's not sure whether she's being playful or snarky and it takes him a bit to loosen up. Then there was the recent hound incident. *rolls eyes* So I'm looking forward to catching up with Maria just for the sake of catching up with her and picking her brain about my plans for Moko, but also because it'll be a chance for him to have some hopefully fun, or at least, less-stressful dog-to-dog interaction opportunities in a safe setting with trustworthy dogs and trustworthy experienced dog person.

I'm proud of his desire and willingness to protect me in that situation, especially as he'd seemd so cowed on his own behalf before it became about defending me rather than himself. I just also want to be very mindful of not allowing him to become reactive or over-defensive due to early negative experiences.

I'm fortunate in that I haven't personally had a reactive or fear-aggressive dog, but I have known them and seen situations involving them, so I want to prevent that ever developing into an issue with Moko, if I'm able. A good friend of mine has a wonderful service dog, a doberman, who is very sensitive, and she had to do a lot of extra work with him due to a few early experiences where he was on-leash and got attacked by off-leash dogs while out walking and developed a stress response to seeing strange dogs approach. He's okay, now, but it was a lot of extra work to help him through these issues and I want to be mindful of trying to leep things from going in that direction with my little guy and try to help him be as well-adjusted and confident as he can be wherever we go and whomever we meet.

[Manstrom]

Harvey and I had a similar situation last week. We were walking around the neighborhood and had a pitbull run up on us snarling. Harvey went from his usual bubbly self to complete defense mode. The pit stopped and ran off but definitely was a scare for me. If that dog had came in completely and attacked the only alternative would have been my offduty sidearm and that's something I don't even want to think about.

Once the dog was gone Harvey went back to his usually goofy self and hasn't shown any difference in being playful towards other dogs.

[katm4110]

encountering off leash dogs is my biggest fear when walking Stella! This thread got me wondering if maybe something happened to her as a puppy and that's why she has such awful dog anxiety and aggression... little Moko is in good hands.... I can definitely see why a lot of DS breeders don't sell these puppies to anyone... (Honestly at first I didn't get it I thought a dog was a dog) Stella is a perfect example of what can happen when these dogs aren't properly trained or handled after a stressful situation!

[feraloup]

Well, as a follow-up... Moko is beginning to be a bit reactive, but not overboard badly so, and we're nipping it in the bud and catching it now, so hopefully we can give him more confidence and keep it from going too far.

I met up with my old trainer at her place on the first, and it was great fun to catch up with her on just a social level, as well as having her meet Moko and chew over ideas about his training with her.

She currently has 3 dogs, two big rotties and a smallish mixed breed rescue. All boys.

We met up outdoors and went for a group walk, her boys off-leash and Moko dragging a 20ft training line. Her property is vast and safe, and Moko is already bonded enough to me that he won't go beyond a certain radius of me without stopping to look over his shoulder and either wait for me to catch up or doubling back to me before bounding ahead again.

He was definitely freaked out at first by the trio of new dogs approaching him and skittered behind me and jumped up on the door of my jeep like "lemme back in! Lemme in!" Then whirled and snarled if they got too close. Her boys are old hands at interacting with every size and shape and temperament of dog imaginable, so when Moko indicated their advances weren't welcome at this time, they gave the doggie equivalent of a nonchalant shrug and did their own thing, moving away from Moko and giving him not further mind.

As our walk progressed you could see Mokume visibly starting to unwind a bit, and even start to make overtures to the other dogs on his own. Particularly if two of them started to play together, he bounded up to them with an eager interest and then kind of hesitated a moment, wanting to play but unsure if he dared to join in, and so kind of romped around the fringe, but with a perky interest and without shying away if one of the other dogs came toward him.

After we'd been out walking around and romping in the snow for a while we adjourned to the house for some hot cocoa and more socializing.

Once in the house, he became defensive of me, not too bad on his own behalf but clearly getting touchy if any of the other boys got to near to me.
He would be quickly, quietly, and gently be moved across the threshold to the other room, and then ignored. He coud bound immediately back in again, and as long as he was being nice, no problem, biut the moment he's get snarly without just cause he'd be put out again. Over time, as on the walk, you could see him visibly chilling out more and more and becoming less concerned by the other dogs and even was so bold as to walk right over Bristol, the big older rottie, who was lying on the kitchen floor, to get at a toy that was in that room near Roman, the younger one. God bless Bristol for not even batting an eye at this, even when Moko set a trailing hind leg down on his hip before finding the floor.

We had a good time talking about my interests for training directions, she knows of a good herding club just a Ferry Ride over the lake in Plattsburgh NY, and invited me to a drop-in agility class that is mostly all trainers getting together and working various dogs at various levels for fun... From introductory to competetive levels and everything between. Just to get him more exposure to more dogs who are all handled by responsible and knowledgeable trainers. The cool thing about that is that it is a drop-in class, held on the same time on the same night every week, and no pressure to have to make it every night, and depending on how many people show up, the fee could be as little as $1 or $2/per person to not more than $10. (They pay for the space and it's split amongst the attendees.). Then, laughing as he traipsed, catlike, across the back of her couch, she mentioned, "Definitely try him with agility!"

She also said that Roman, her young rottie who's only about a year and half is doing beginning tracking work and Moko and I are invited to join them on Saturdays and she'll help me with learning that. (She's a schoolteacher as well as a dog trainer, so she and I have a similar day-job schedule, which is awesome.)

I'm feeling really good about Moko's options and very much looking forward to our next get-together.