Spray Bottle

[centrop67]

Forum member Feraloup mentioned in his recent photo post about using a spray bottle with a water/apple cider vinegar mix. I didn't want to derail the thread of the wonderful pictures of Moko, so I thought I would pose my question here.

Does/can the vinegar really make a difference?

We tried the spray bottle at the beginning with Radar, but used only water. Radar's reaction was to incessantly attack and try to get the bottle from us, so we abandoned that form of deterrent rather quickly.

We have tried real hard to use only negative punishment (not what it sounds like) with Radar. That is, we ignore him or leave the room when he acts up - the punishment is to take away (negative) something he wants. It's not 100% effective, though, so I am always looking for better ways.

[feraloup]

I, too, try to use positive reinforcement or ignoring/removal in most training situations. The reason I resorted to yhd spray bottle was because the driving situation was so alarming and dangerous and I needed a way to "get" him, instantaneously in the moment of the behavior, while still at the wheel.

I don't know if others have tried it or have better suggestions... but it works for us at this time. Moko loves water and playing in water, so like in your case, water alone was no good. The reason I tried the vinegar is because it's strong-smelling enough to get his attention and not have him want to intentionally snap at the sream in fun, but it has beneficial properties, too, and so wouldn't do any harm on his skin or licked off his coat. It's also less of a negative punishment, like, say, a zap from an electric collar, and more of a "hey!" attention-getting "snap-out-of-it!" device that can get through to him when he's really escalated and unreachable by voice. It's not pleasant, but it doesn't cause significant pain or discomfort.

I'm cur
ious to hear others' thoughts?

[feraloup]

I'm a "her" by the way... Moko is a "he" but I'm female... no offense taken, just clarifying...

[centrop67]

I'm a "her" by the way... Moko is a "he" but I'm female... no offense taken, just clarifying...

My sincere apologies. I usually go the extra step to make sure I get the dog's gender correct, but I guess I dropped the ball for the human side.

In fact, I have been called Radar's "mom" here on the forum - I guess because I listed my pack as the dog, my wife, and then me. That's why I underlined my name in the signature.

[LyonsFamily]

I'm not sure about vinegar. I wash my hair in a diluted vinegar solution once a month and it really hurts when I get it in my eyes or it rolls past any cut on my face. It happens every time even though I give myself fair warning and I'm trying to be careful. I can't imagine it would be too pleasant on a dog, especially because it's hard to aim when a dog gets drivey and it could likely end up in the eyes.

While I do value different training methods, I'm a fan of management over punishment when at all possible. It's too easy to act in anger or frustration when a dog is in a "situation was so alarming and dangerous." If it happens more than once it's a situation that should be avoided. The dog shouldn't be set up for failure. The dog shouldn't be loose in the car if there's a problem like that. A seat belt tether, dog barrier, crate, or extra human should be there to help restrain until the dog is properly trained to stay in place. Training while driving a car is not a good thing, regardless of what method you use. I certainly don't want to be behind a driver spraying their dog while I'm on the road.

It's the same thing when being reactive. Avoid the situation until the dog is trained. You can work up to the threshold every time and work on focus drills. If the dog goes nuts on the porch when people walk by, only bring him out during quiet times at first. Provide stimulation and an area he can escape to and not feel threatened by the people and slowly work your way up to busy times. Start with people you know walking by and find a way to communicate with them to stop if the dog is getting close to threshold.

Barking, growling, etc are signs that a dog is uncomfortable. Would you punish your spouse by spraying water/vinegar in her face for telling you that she doesn't want you eating off her plate or that she's scared the man at the door isn't really from AT&T? Once you start punishing for the communications, you can be on a path to a dog that gives no warnings and just bites. I spent a lot of time getting Odin to growl at strangers when I first got him because he was too quick to lunge when he felt threatened. I've been criticized by other trainers for not punishing him for growling and instead redirecting him and taking control of the situation, but how else will he tell me enough is enough?

[feraloup]

Valid points, Stephanie, and I always appreciate your insights!

I use way more water than vinegar, very dilute as I wanted to be very sensitive to a dog's way more intense olfactory system. I also am cautious not to aim for his face. I generally squirt his back or his legs.

Your points about training and threshold work are also really valid, but I am working within a handicap in where I live and lack of available helpers/friends who could assist much with any regularity. I have to be able to take him out to potty, and there are always people walking by on the sidewalk and/or parking just across the street and milling around (the house we rent is directly across from the public river access. "Quiet times" can be hard to come by.

Driving: I can't never take him anywhere, and he is secured in the vehicle, not loose. He rides in the backmost cargo area of my jeep cherokee with a gate between that space and the rear seats. Plus he is tethered to one of the metal tie-down rings bolted to the floor of that cargo space. That didn't stop him from lunging at the side with enough force to rock the jeep when he perceived a threat.

[feraloup]

Continuing, didn't want to lose all the tediously phone-typed thoughts to timeout...

When possible I have done pratice vehicle work with him when parked somewhere and/or had my son or fiancee hold the spray-bottle if I wasn't alone. I don't drive around willy-nilly squirtgunning behind me as I go!

In fact, I actually don't need to drive with it anymore, either, as he got much better in the car very quickly.

I also never squirt him just for growling or barking. Generally I say "Thank you, I see them," first, followed by "Enough," or "Hush!"

It is only if the "Enough" or "Hush" are completely blown off that I resort to the squirt. And as I said, he then gets praised and treated the second he stops and looks at me. I also spend much more time watching him intently and when I see him get alert but before he gets started in a reaction I talk to him and mark/reward for looking at me and for any signs of relaxing. Also, if he does start reacting and is able to stop when I ask him to, he gets rewarded for responding to a command to stop. I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm trigger-happy and resorting to the squirt bottle for all occasions.