Hello From Canada!

[vgibson19]

Hi there! I'm recently a first time Dutch Shepherd owner, and my loving boyfriend a first time dog owner ever. Our boy named Asphalt or Ash for short has quickly become our 4 legged baby. He is just over a year old and was adopted from my local animal shelter. He was surrendered there by his previous owner because he grew to be too big. I believe he was beaten as well because anytime we scold him he gets incredibly scared and pees. I find it quite heartbreaking but I'm trying to give him as loving home as possible now.

His temperament is amazing, he is yet to meet a person he doesn't like, and plays so well with children. He's still hyper, but I let that slide because he never got to enjoy his puppy years. The only issue we have is his separation anxiety, which is so bad the vets office suggested Prozac, and he seems awful thin behind the ribs.

Anyways hope to chat with all of you more and learn about this beautiful breed!!
Veronica

[Karin]

Welcome Veronica and Ash.

Look into marker training and positive reinforcement training. Reward the good, ignore the bad, especially given his reaction. At least for now. He sounds like a great dog.

[KellaA+dog6]

Hi There, Beautiful Dog.
I know there are more formal training methods for separation anxiety, but I used my dog Kella's need for a job, as well as the repeat and patience that goes with all training. She also is a very "soft" dog when it comes to verbal corrections. I started with short times away, Telling her to" Watch the House, I'll be back" every time I left. I didn't make a big deal leaving or returning. Just a Good dog, you watched the house. 2 1/2 yrs later - She comes to the front of the deck, sees me getting in the car, and walks away to go back to sleep or watch the animals in the park behind the house. (but she gets excited when I return, yodeling and yipping until I get in the house.) Hope this helps a little.

[johninny]

welcome. thanks for rescuing ASH !!!
I addition to the above, with dogs that are anxious, I reward ''good wait'' or ''good stay'' [ depending on circumstances ] upon my return to house, yard [ even if he never lost sight of me ], car, whatever, with a treat. then my short departures become good things -- more food to come!

PROZAC is the WORST idea. [ can others please tell me if other vets recommend Prozac? and am I wrong? ]
serotonin re-uptake drugs are nasty and complicated and cause major changes in personality; they are meant for use [ in humans ] only for severe, on-going depression of certain kinds. I ask for other input on this, but I am truly appalled by that suggestion and if it were me I would, if at all possible, get out of that vet's office and find someone with a knowledge of medicine.

Xanax [ generic name alprazolam is very inexpensive ] was developed specifically to counter panic attacks [ which is what your dog suffers as severe separation anxiety ] but is very effective as a generalized anti-anxiety drug. like any drug, it should be used more than really necessary, but this drug is relatively harmless as long as ASH does not have to drive or operate heavy machinery while on it until you are sure what dose is correct. get the smallest dose pill that is made; I think that is .25mg [ look up on internet to see if available in .10mg ]. if as you say his separation anxiety is really bad, try 1/2 a pill. it will not do away with the anxiety, but hopefully that is enough to take the edge off. of course, it needs time to kick in, so plan a dose in advance [ half an hour?? ]. the object is to remove enough of the anxiety that he LEARNS that he can live with you going away. if you remove ALL the anxiety, you will have a very happy but loopy dog. maybe try to remove subjectively 1/2 to 3/4 of the anxious response [ aim for 3/4 at first]. if you want to discuss my use and dosing of this drug on DS rescues in more detail, please feel free to PM me and we can speak on the phone.

but end result should be that dog discovers that your departure does not result in emotional pain and anguish, so he does not anticipate the pain and remains calm. he should learn fairly quickly, and you can start reducing dosage. I have, when needed for new rescue anxiety or fireworks-averse dogs on 4th of july, given a dose that is 1/3 of the smallest dose pill that is made and find that works well-enough without making the dog not give a damn - all without damaging the dog's brain, body, changing personality [ always for the worse ], or creating chemical imbalances in the dog. Prozac and like drugs are designed to correct severe chemical imbalances in the body; if that chemical imbalance does not exist [ which it does not here - in the case of anxiety ], then you are creating massive chemical imbalance by taking a serotonin re-uptake drug !!

BTW, I love ASH's one floppy ear. my dog of very many years - Tracedog - had one ear that flopped over in a crease half way down. I would not have had it any other way. that ear was so interesting.

[Karin]

I don't know anything about using psychotropic drugs in animals but I do in humans. I have heard of the use of SSRIs (Selective Seratonin Uptake Inhibitors - Prozac, Zoloft, etc) in animals for separation anxiety and don't think it is way out of the norm.

In humans, I prefer the SSRIs to the benzodiazapines (Xanax, Ativan) because the benzos are more likely to be abused because they are fast-acting and so affective. They have a much higher addictive potential, not that everyone abuses them but the likelihood of abuse is much higher. They work quickly and can be taken as needed. Tolerance can develop with regular use. Prozac in humans takes longer to load in the system and is not fast acting, so it is a drug that is taken daily and not typically abused because there is no "high". Prozac is thought to have good anti-anxiety attributes. In terms of toxicity and lethality it is a much safer drug overall than the benzos. Neither of the drugs are perfect both have saved lives and improved lives. Both have side-effects and some people have tolerance problems with them. Personality change is not a common side-effect in humans. Although I would add that multiple psychotropic drugs taken at the same time, the drug cocktail, has a high incidence of what we might call personality change.

Just a mental health therapist perspective.

[johninny]

''more likely to be abused because they are so fast-acting and effective'' does not sound like a reason not to use a drug designed for the problem as opposed to one that is not and must be used constantly. I assume that ASH will not get the whole bottle to use at his discretion.
[ as to personality, when I think I detect SSRI use because someone is so in-your-face obnoxious, I ask if the person is taking one. it turns out I am spot-on in detecting use of it by observing personalities; that sounds like the ultimate in personality change to me. I am well aware that this phenomenon is not being reported ( or maybe not even noted ), but it surely exists.] these drugs can be very harmful for those that do not have the specific conditions they were designed to treat.
and let's make a distinction between addictive [ like nicotine or caffeine ] and becoming dependent. if Xanax is used in regular [ high] dose for years, it CAN become less effective and thus require higher doses for the same effect. what ASH needs is help in teaching him that the world does not end when his person leaves. if Prozac is used, the anti-anxiety effect may or not be present, but the dog will care less about everything -- AND WHAT DO YOU DO SOME DAY< MONTH< or YEAR WHEN YOU THINK ENOUGH WITH THE PROZAC. the dog has LEARNED nothing; instead, his ENTIRE world is suddenly perceived differently that it had been while he is on Prozac. talk about addiction! how do you get a person or a dog off Prozac?

the Xanax would be used in minuscule amounts occasionally for a few weeks or maybe a month or so, so that he can be calm enough to see that he IS safe even without his person. in a state of panic, he will not be calm enough to realize what we see as obvious. he needs a drug designed for panic

[Schlussdibusti]

Here are from the holistic department.....

Bach's Rescue Remedy has helped many humans and pets alike. It is sold in most health food stores. I also have a big piece of rose quartz and put it next to the crate. They like the loving energy and will lay close to it.

[Sugars Mom]

Hmm, interesting Eva. I'm going to look into that...for my people lol. Thanks!

[johninny]

Eva, do you get the pet one or the human product for your dogs? is it one-size-fits-all for your family? and when [ for what] and how do you use [administer] it?
maybe this is something that would help Sakima who is very anxious when around humans OR their things, which is most of the time since it even includes being in his own house. he is spectacularly confident when in nature - in the yard, on nature walks, or doing what he does best - finding and killing critters. I can see how he survived so well fending for himself for weeks in the wild as a puppy, but his past continues to haunt him despite my best efforts. whenever I get advice, it is something I have been doing all along. and I have not resorted to Xanax because it is a generalized anxiousness that is ever-present when he is not in his element.

does this sound like a good application for Bachs? how would you approach this?

[ my foster Cain is the only dog for whom I have used Xanax for anything other than 4th of july fireworks. with me a few feet outside the house, he crashed through a door; then I got a heavy-gauge metal crate which he completely mangled in the one time I left him for 15 minutes - with blood everywhere in-and-out of the crate and supplying the answer to why his teeth were the way they were. it was even dangerous to stop and get gas with him in the car as he would furiously pound the windows with the full force of his body; one window still won't work correctly. I doubt that ASH is quite as bad, but at that level of panic it takes a very effective drug to get the dog to the point where longer-term emotional and physical health are not being compromised by the severe physiological response that is part-and-parcel of panic. all my DS [5] - which have all been rescues - have had separation anxiety, but they cope with it and slowly learn that although they don't like me leaving the house without them, it is not the impending tragedy they use to think it was - and sometimes even results in great stuff happening, like the sudden appearance of raw marrow bones or a big slab of roast beef! I even think TD got to look forward to my short sojourns alone as he fully expected that there would be shopping bags for him to ransack upon my return. few things made him happier than that no matter whether it was groceries or t-shirts! Cain and now Ash need help to get to that point of normal DS separation anxiety - which is bad enough as it is - which will allow them to think and learn and cope on their own in the long-run.]

not knowing your bach's remedy, I might try it first but I would be ready to go further quickly [ like to Xanax ] as it may not be able to address panic as opposed to anxiety. regardless, it sounds like it would be an excellent way to follow through on therapy once the panic is addressed successfully.

[Sugars Mom]

http://www.bachflower.com/rescue-remedy-information/

[Sugars Mom]

If you go to that link and click on BUY NOW it lists the products for pets, kids, etc

[Schlussdibusti]

John: Here is a link to the Bach Flower Remedy website (Pets) http://www.bachflower.com/rescue-remedy ... ch-flower/ But I used the human version. The pet version is a newer product and does not contain alcohol and is recommended for smaller pets like rodents, birds, etc. I put just a drop into their mouth. It can't be overdosed.
If you want to go the holistic route, look into homeopathy and crystals. But I would recommend consulting a trained professional. Homeopathy does not work like medicine, i.e. symptom A requires treatment B. The motto is "similia similibus curentur" or "like cures like".
First part is a physical and psychological assessment of the patient. The vet will ask questions like: who makes it first to the door when you come home (in a multiple pet household), who is more afraid, who is clingy, favorite food, dislikes, etc. They will also consider appearance, tall, short slender, etc.. Based on that assessment a "Konstitutionsmittel" is chosen which helps to support the body's natural healing abilities. Based on the assessment, a remedy for a particular ailment can also be determined. For instance a "Pulsatilla" type is someone who has a lovely and gentle demeanor, cute in appearance, does not fair well with greasy food, has mood swings, is a bit clingy and the list goes on. It is a quite complex topic and the only good website about it I found is in German http://www.homoeopathie-homoeopathisch.de. You can imagine how important it is to get the assessment right, or else the wrong remedy is chosen. I don't like the way homeopathic remedies are sold at health food stores. They list the ailments a particular remedy is to be used for. This is not conform with the concept of Samuel Hahnemann who originated this system in 1796.

In regards to the crystals, "caveat emptor", there are a lot of quacks around in the local esoteric stores. I bought some books about the topic (Crystal Bible - Judy Hall, Love is in the Earth - Melody, Crystal Triology - Katrina Raphael, Crystal Healing for Animals - Martin Scott), I also went to a local gem & jewelry fair, bought some pieces I was let to buy and tried it. This is how I came up with putting a big chunk of rose quartz next to the crate.

I think it boils down to energy and there are many ways to keep it in a healthy frequency (herbs, homeopathy, crystals, music, colors, reiki, whatnot).

Did you try animal communication? http://www.marlasteele.com May be this will uncover the source and can provide solutions.

[Stacy_R]

My Min-Pin suffered from horrible separation anxiety. I have used a combination of holistic products (flower essences such as bach's rescue remedy, Azmira products, Pet Essences products), homeopathic (Hampl has a product called calm-eze), and behavioral training. I just had to find the right product for him, but the behavioral training is what really did the trick, I think.

[Schlussdibusti]

maybe this is something that would help Sakima who is very anxious when around humans OR their things, which is most of the time since it even includes being in his own house.

I watched some of the videos on Sakima's youtube channel. He seems to be not anxious in the house with Xander. Perhaps your new adoptee TeXan will do the same for him.

BTW, I went through the same with my black Lab puppies, i.e. nonstop play and action - the Lab typical "body slamming" style. It all calmed down after they were 3 years old