DS or Malinois? Or both?

[gmbobby]

Ok. So I got some pictures from the breeder. And looking at them, I'd say she is much closer to a Malinois than a DS. He did say the sire was a brindle DS, and the mother was a Black DS. Which does indicate the mother has Malinois in her and carries the gene for Fawn/Sable/Black color. What is everyone's opinion on this?

[Karin]

I swear that I read on here that based on genetics of the DS you cannot have a truly pure black DS. I think that was Judith. Does anyone else remember this?

I think the puppy comes from lines have have recent malinois interbreeding. Not an unusual practice. It is what it is.

[gmbobby]

I asked, and he said she was a black brindle, with very faint light markings that have faded or fallen out and that now she looks black. And he did say it's completely possible that at some point, there was Malinois in the line, but that he himself doesn't breed malinois or cross breed. So....? I mean to me, it's a beautiful puppy. I'm just trying to see what everyone thinks.

[Karin]

Ah yes… but all puppies are beautiful! And that pup certainly is.
I think you got some good advice in the other thread. Plan out what you want to do and make wise decisions.
As others said, this cute little guy will not meet the DS breed standard.
Best whatever you decide.

[gmbobby]

Yeah I know this is definitely not the breed standard lol

[gmbobby]

I just wanted to see if anyone would know whether this is a DS or Malinois. Or possibly both.

[Sugars Mom]

I think to call it a DS it needs to be brindle.

[Raven]

Based on what I (think) I've learned, minus the excruciating details of the genetics behind it, a DS is always brindled. They can be so black that they appear black (or whatever), but they ARE brindled.

That said, you can slap a cotton ball on a pitbull's ass and sell it as a rabbit.

[gmbobby]

That said, you can slap a cotton ball on a pitbull's ass and sell it as a rabbit.

Haha best quote I've seen in quite a while. No I completely agree that if it's not brindle, then it doesn't fit in the breed standard. And therefore isn't considered a DS. I just didn't know if the physical characteristics, i.e. head shape, paw size, etc fit in the DS or Malinois type. Though from what I've read they are very similar.

[gmbobby]

My most likely course will be to continue researching breeders, and once I have one or two picked out that I really like, I'll try to take a trip out to them and view the dogs they have, etc.

[Raven]

I'd be hard-pressed to trust DS breeders beyond the few I've learned from here--Christie and Judith come first to mind--but I only adopt, so....

Hope you have patience to think things through and pick reliable brains; obviously the more reliable information you gather over time will make your ultimate decision more satisfactory. "Jumping in" is really only good when you throw yourself in a river to try and evade the authorities. Heh.

[Karin]

Bobby,
Read this thread. It is great and will answer many of your questions.
http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewt ... =56&t=1208

[gmbobby]

Karin,

Thanks for the thread. Definitely a huge help. Exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks!

[Dances With Empties]

I think every litter I saw had at least one 'fawn' in it. Didn't go through the whole link Karin provided. But it is my understanding that in order to keep the breed around after the war, carefully selected German & Malinois were selected to sustain the breed. Far from an expert, but it would explain the non brindle pups in a 'purebred' litter.

[Christie M]

I think the original poster has left, but I will answer briefly if I can

First, thank you for the kind words everyone who mentioned my breedings. That means a lot to me!!

Generally, all of the herding type breeds were about the same and crossed back and forth a ton. Over a hundred years ago, each regional "breed club" created their "breed standard" and tried to breed towards that type - basically what we know as the German Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd and Belgian Shepherds. Each country's breed club closed their stud books at different times. For Dutch Shepherds, that was in the 1970s. Up until then, if the dog was evaluated by more than one judge that it met the breed standard, then it was accepted into the stud book. Meeting the breed standard is simply an evaluation based on physical appearance - which a fawn/brindle breeding could produce. So the FCI dogs coming from the closed stud books have known pure generations back to the 70s - not before.

EXCEPT - there was also the careful introduction of a few breedings to increase genetic population. This was done with dogs that were not 100% FCI. Also, it is known that some overseas FCI breeders misrepresented their papers to make registered working dogs. Lastly, every country has a different standard for getting a dog into their national breed club, and therefore can become FCI registered. There are still some countries that are more or less lax about accepting Dutch Shepherds - so then by default they have FCI registrations.

So where does that leave us? LOL. Heck if I know. Except to say that every Dutch Shepherd has some outcrossed breedings in there - officially or not. And the only purity standard we could even shoot for only goes back about 40 years.

The statements about KNPV vs FCI are true enough. Good dogs are bred based on work, not physical characteristics. However, there are plenty of breeders with KNPV stock who are working to stay true to a brindle standanrd.

Genetically, the K lokus determines fawn, brindle or black (in Dutch and mals anyway). If the dog has any brindle at all, it is considered brindle - even though people use descriptive terms like "black brindle" or "reverse brindle." Those are just generic terms to describe what the dog looks like. Black is most dominant and represented by Kb, brindle is next dominant and is represented by Kbr, and fawn (yellow) is least dominant and represented by Ky.

A black dog could be Kb/Kb, Kb/Kbr, or Kb/Ky. If it carries black at all, it will be black in color but could carry brindle or fawn.

A brindle dog could be Kbr/Kbr or Kbr/Ky. So brindle dogs can carry fawn - this is common because it is easily masked for generations. The most recent litter of FCI registered long-haired dogs in this country had a fawn. So they still would be FCI registered Dutch Shepherd. It just is considered a fault and not a breedable dog. UKC has a different standard as they say brindle is the ONLY acceptable color, but UKC should really confer to FCI standard....and they probably will.

Finally, a fawn can only be Ky/Ky and therefor can never through anything but fawn.

Sable is a separate term that refers to patterning over the sable base coat. It effects what you see off of the K locus, but does not change the genetic base color.

So in this particular situation - if one parent was a solid black dog, then it would have had obvious outside influence in the lines because it can not carry black without expressing it. But the presence of a fawn/sable puppy is not evidence that it is not a "pure bred" because that color can be masked. If both parents are truly brindle, then the pedigrees deserve further looking into.

Does that make any sense?? LOL.