False Advertising

[LyonsFamily]

I wanted to start a discussion based on the comments in another thread, but didn't want to continue that thread onto another possible tangent. What do you all do in forms of "advertising" the breed and avoiding false impressions.

I took Elli to a Barn Hunt mini seminar/practice session at a neighbor's farm (totally not her thing by the way) and everyone was commenting on how well behaved and calm she was. A few agility people starting asking about her pedigree and inquired about getting a calm Dutch Shepherd. Elli is not calm. She's nuts and very very crazy. She's worse than most mals I know when it comes to settling in the home and about 100X more hyper than Odin on his non-sore days. The front she was putting on at the barn was all obedience and a little bit of bribery with her tug when the cats and farm animals walked by. It was very hard to convince them that she's not naturally this way.

Around here, most agility dogs have zero obedience outside of what is needed in the ring. Most people at the barn were agility people. One woman commented on how the Dutch Shepherds in her classes were nowhere near as calm as Elli and maybe she'd like to get one for her next dog. She had dachshunds. The dachshunds were very out of control with her. No obedience, no loose leash walking. I'm sure if she added a dog from Elli's line, or pretty much any DS, those dachshunds would've been hurt or eaten with her handling and management skills.

Getting dogs because of false advertising is very common in the dog sport world. It happened big time with Border Collies in my training club growing up. Everyone got one because of the high levels of obedience and agility they saw at regionals and on TV, but they were way in over their heads and quite a few had problems co-existing with the children and other animals in the home. Those in DS and mal rescue see it a lot as well.

I'm on a few trainers forums and there have been a lot of discussions about using mals and DS as demo dogs for trainers. I use Odin to demo agility and nosework. Elli, unlike Odin, is very people social, so I'm sure she's going to be finding her way into public events with me. Everyone on here that's a professional trainer I'm sure uses their DS for at least some demo work. A lot of people mentioned that having a mal or DS is cheating because they're such easy dogs to train and live with and that trainers should get something like a hound if they really want to show their skills.

Neither of my two are plug and play dogs, so I was a little surprised at that comment. My first competition dog was a beagle. I was 10 when we started training and there's no way I could've handled a DS at that age. Yes, Lucie had issues not falling asleep during the long sits and was stubborn when it came to food avoidance, and walked the agility course instead of running if she felt like it, but I never had to deal with cat chasing, leash reactivity, growling at strangers, destroying the house if she didn't get worked that day, etc that many DS owners do, including my own. I think it's a lot more difficult taking a high drive dog with a very high prey drive into the obedience ring with energetic dogs of all breeds and small dogs that may decide to randomly bolt leading to a potential chase during the group stays. Hounds are bred for their dog friendliness and there aren't too many consequences outside of lost points for breaking a sit or down. Do you think trainers having these dogs showing lots of obedience is also false advertising for the breed?

[johninny]

very thoughtful commentary and question as always.

this question is not directed to my sort at all, but i would just say in relation to the other thread where this idea sprang up again, if one is in competition or trials [ which is way beyond me ], the ''audience'' on average will be many times more sophisticated than the average person that walks or drives by me or others of us on the forum and so frequently pauses to ask what is that and sometimes even offers to buy one of my dogs. i think you are asking a different question, but i wanted to get that out of the way as being a very different situation. i will stay out of the rest of this thread, but a great DS in competition should be a tribute to the ''total training'' skills of the owner/handler rather than just one specific routine. why not show off those skills that get more into behavioral knowledge and understanding?

[LyonsFamily]

Thanks for your reply John. It was directed at you too. I just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on what they do to advertise their dog's breeds on the street, not just at competitions. I know you mentioned in the other thread about not saying the breed name. What about if someone already knows about Dutch Shepherds from pictures or on TV like the mal on person of interest and comments on how meeting your dogs makes them want one? I guess I went on a bit of a ramble with my post if it wasn't exactly clear.

One big downfall in breeds I've seen aside from sport people is how the pit bull is displayed to the general public. The public image of pits and bully breeds is often so bad, responsible owners go to the opposite end of the spectrum and claim that pits make great dogs for everyone and completely ignore any genetic traits and hide potential behavioral problems so that people don't think poorly of the dog. It's a terrier for goodness sake. I've heard so many made up stories that sometimes even dismiss that pits were ever bred for bull or dog fighting. I heard a rescue coordinator when asked how a particular (untested) dog did with children, reply that pits are genetically bred to be nanny dogs, so this one will be perfect. I love pits and enjoy working with the bully breeds, but they're not a breed for everyone either. Their size, prey drive, and genetic animal aggression can be problems if not trained right and even an outlet.

Perhaps in that situation, just denying the breed heritage would be a good thing like you mentioned, rather than spreading the fact that they're wonderful dogs and perfect for every home. Odin's first owner actually adopted him at 5 months because they thought he was an "easy" pit bull and would fit into their high rise condo and not need much exercise. Then his ears stood up and his face got longer and they realized their cute puppy was a monster and they were in over their head. Honestly, that probably would've happened with a pit too or pretty much any large breed.

[Raven]

When it comes to most any animal, show the general public something that appeals to them, for whatever reason (cute, smart, fuzzy, etc.) and they'll clamor for it. Have to have one. Without taking responsibility. When the show "Frazier" came out...everyone had to have a JRT, not realizing the ball of frenzy they can be.

From what I've seen around here, too, show dogs don't have much OB. And the trainers and some of the shelter workers I know seem to live in their own little worlds that have been carved out to suit their ideas and conveniences. (All Akitas are bad; a dog is a dog is a dog; aggression is always fear-based or a aggressive dog is a "mean" dog; all small dogs are jerks; etc.)

I usually tell people the breed when asked, followed up with some disclaimer that might act as discouragement. Especially since the breed is gaining in popularity, I feel I'd be doing a disservice (injustice?) to the breed if I didn't. We all know from this site alone how many people can look up dogs on the net and discover this breed...and with all the misinformation online, I'd rather take a minute to say something than have someone walk away hungry to own one.

That said, some (insert expletive) girl asked where she could "get one of those" because "my boyfriend collects shepherds." I have no idea what that meant...sigh.

On a side note, I'm surprised to learn how many strangers approach the DSs on this forum; the majority of encounters with mine are from people who keep a distance because of the menacing/serious appearance of the DS even when they're just chillin'. Conversation, due to distance, is brief.

Clarification needed: If you're demo'ing, isn't it for the public or a class? If so, the public/class isn't going to know how easy or difficult the dog/breed was to train. And DS have a rep for being handler aggressive (though not all), among other not-so-easy things, so the trainers are saying they're an easy dog to train based on their being quick to learn???? Do the trainers who say this own/ever owned DSs?

Interesting subject.

(Hope I've been at least mildly coherent. There's lots of noise at my house and hard to concentrate.)

[johninny]

well my 1st response is as i said, but if the person lingers and wants to discuss, i see where it goes and for most people [ but not Sharon's ___girl whose BF collects shepherds] i then volunteer that it is a DS and explain why i did not say so 1st time around. most people who display the PATIENCE to get the full story [ with disclaimers and severe cautions ], deserve a straight answer. under these circumstances, most people that were actually wanting and looking for a dog decide on their own that a DS is not for them. several times though, i have exchanged #s/email and offered my help in identifying and getting a rescue DS that might suit them.
in those cases, the people fully grasped what i had said, showed themselves fairly adept at interacting with my dog [ and at earning the DS seal of approval ] and were quite serious, sincere, and diligent in their approach to being a canine's partner and owner [ training, diet, emotional health, the right home situation,etc]. if i realize there is a potentially great DS owner in front of me, i have no problem doing a sales pitch for DS/DSmix rescues.

[Stacy_R]

I tried to post earlier, but due to operator error, my post was deleted... I fault the carpel tunnel from my post earlier today.

Interesting question, but my short answer is "no." I would actually say the opposite...that if a trainer uses a DS or Mal as a demo dog, they are actually showing their skills as a trainer. Yes, DS and Mals are quick studies and learn fast, want to learn so they have a job to do, etc, etc. However, I would argue that the level of training required to use a DS as an actual demo dog is far above average. I would say that as long as said trainer fully explained the time, resources, and energy required to get a DS to that level and also explained what they are like when not in "working" mode (i.e. demo mode), then it's not false advertising at all. When a demo dog is being demo'd...he is working... Totally different mindset than at home, free as a bird, having the zoomies and tossing tennis balls in your lap. This is true for any dog who is working. I have a couple of friends with assistance dogs...when the vest goes on...different mindset, different dog. Having a demo dog is no different...they know when they are working.

Even Tyson, through many hours of conditioning, is very aware that when we are out and about inside dog friendly stores he is "working" and isn't allowed to go bananas (no, he isn't a demo dog, but it is just a mindset...his "job" when we are out and about in dog friendly stores is to focus on me). This is actually where I get most comments...and where I do the most explaining... And honestly, when I explain the origins, requirements, and typical uses and that DS aren't your standard house dog, most people walk away happy that they don't have to play fetch in the rain or spend hours training and are perfectly happy with their Labs, Poodles, and Doodles...

A lot of people mentioned that having a mal or DS is cheating because they're such easy dogs to train and live with and that trainers should get something like a hound if they really want to show their skills.

Really? I double-dog dare any of them to try out a DS...especially on impulse control when they are in a down-stay and a big, fat squirrel runs across the road right in front of said DS...

[Dutchringgirl]

I don’t do any ‘advertising’ of this breed at all. Personally, I don’t think any average family who wants a dog should have one of these. If they go to adopt and get one, well, then they are in for a treat. I don’t go in public a lot as I usually go to the open fields and hiking trails to play, but when I meet someone, I do get asked what are they. I tell them DS, since they are both pure, and what they are used for, and that’s usually police and SAR work. I then tell them that Thalie is a trained protection dog and Sadie just tags along and thinks she is scary
.
Stephanie, I don’t understand why someone would say having a DS is cheating? Each breed has its job and what they are supposed to do, sure, DS and Mals are easy to train, but they need to learn so much that if they were difficult to train, they could never learn all of the lessons they needed to. Also, having grown up with hounds, who are the most stubborn dogs, one would want to shoot themselves after trying to train them even the most basic defense move. Explain to them that hounds are not meant to do many things, just one, sniff and find. That’s it.
That’s what I like about Ring Sport, its so many angles of training, that these dogs eat up and perform wonderfully.
I had the repair guy come one day for my dishwasher, he asked what are the breeds of my dogs? I told him , he then said he has Coon Hounds. I chuckled. He love his as we love ours but realize that there are many aspects about each breed that can be a challenge.
Like I said in the other thread, anyone doing false advertising is really doing a great disservice to the dogs and the potential owners. I am proud of my girls and love them to death, but knowing what they are, I go out of my way to tell people that they are only for working.

[feraloup]

*lol* I think this is the most I've been able to post in months! (One of the kiddos I work with is out, today, and I've more free time to be on a computer than normal!)

I usually have a basket muzzle on Moko when we are out and about where lots of interaction is likely to happen, so no one gets the impression he's a super-sweet family dog. (He is, actually, it's non-family that needs work... but I digress.)

I politely answer questions for folks who compliment him and admire him, and talk about the work I've been doing with him, why he has some of the issues he has and what and how we're working to improve his stability, and our hopes to eventually have him be a good canine citizen. He doesn't need to love everyone, just not be a lawsuit waiting to happen... and I show them pictures of the inside of my jeep that looks like a shark has taken bites out of it, and the receipt for replacing the rear-seatbelts that he chewed, THROUGH the barrier, and the wiring that he pulled out of the casing around the rear windshield and chewed through, and the hole in the ceiling and dangling ends of wires where there was once an overhead light... I give them an honest breakdown of the good traits and the challenges, together, and refer them NADSR for more information if they want to learn more.

The part that makes me nuts is when someone remarks, "He's so pretty! Is he fixed? I have this female dog..." I politely and firmly point out that he is NOT breeding material, really emphasizing his reactivity and fearfulness issues and thanks but no-thanks. *twitch* I love him, but I have NO desire to reproduce him! Especially not with that kind of casual, offhand, lack of standard or ethics about it!

[Stacy_R]

*twitch* I love him, but I have NO desire to reproduce him! Especially not with that kind of casual, offhand, lack of standard or ethics about it!

ROFL!!!! You are killing me today!!!!