Frontline Plus and lethargy

[LyonsFamily]

I haven't had an issue with Frontline that is breed specific with the DS, but I don't use anything with my Dutch here now. We're not a in a flea/tick hot bed. If I lived in certain environments, I'd use something topical though. I've worked in clinics before and I'm doing some vet assistant work part time now. I've seen more adverse reactions and deaths to random things like shampoo and floor cleaner than Frontline, or other prescribed medications. It can happen, but horror stories get published a lot more than good results.

I prefer more natural methods as well, and will be one of the first to suggest things. I take an "holisitc" approach to heartworm preventative. I don't give it. I test every 3-6 months since the slow treatment for early stage heartworms is just using the pills anyway and it takes a few months for adult heartworms to develop. Heartworm preventative isn't a preventative. It's a poison that kills larval heartworms. If given every month, it will kill anything before it progresses to adult heartworms that can cause damage. If I test frequently, I'm finding the heartworm before it becomes an adult anyway. I prefer not to give a poison every month and just test very regularly and will follow up with the pills if needed. Before anyone says anything, yes I have lived with dogs, mainly fosters, that were undergoing heartworm treatments and I made this decision AFTER dealing with a few dogs that had the disease.

Regarding "holistic" flea and tick treatment, even some of those can be bad, if not worse than the medication itself. Tea Tree Oil, for example, is toxic to pets and humans if ingested. In cats, it can easily be absorbed through the skin and cause organ failure. You have to be very careful of your source and use only a low concentration for it to be safe. Shampoos with tea tree oil in very low concentrations are even labeled not for use on puppies or cats and those have very small doses. If getting it for flea control, I wouldn't buy it over the counter marketed for dogs because that has zero regulation. I'd only order Pharmaceutical Grade made for humans and never use it on a puppy and then I'd still probably go with a topical medication because drug companies will pay out for problems or reactions much easier. I've personally filled out 3 claim forms that have been reimbursed for failed vaccinations or medicines for client dogs that resulted in death or emergency care. While it won't get your dog back if death occurs, you have no recourse if going the holistic route and something happens.

My guess is that Jerry Lee is experiencing a build up of toxins and chemicals in his body and just had a reaction. Hopefully it's just a one time thing. Heartworm treatment can be hard on a dog. Did he also get shots at the same time? Most dogs coming out of the shelter environment also get an overload of shots because nobody knows what has been given before and have to immunize for legality or to protect other dogs.

[MaliNut]

"if you go to amazon and do a search on Cedar spray "

Let me play devils advocate...

Where is that made? In a garage or a non-FDA inspected facility and lets say, a first day employee screws up and puts in a 55 gallon drum of turpentine into a 3000 gallon batch of cedar oil and it misses a QC check and gets shipped out.

Point being...I believe holistic may be more dangerous than any Pharma product as a FDA approved pharma product is made by a strict formula and to exacting precision. Amazon sells a knock off of "Capstar"(nitenpyram) by "queen city animals" for a fraction of the cost. Capstar is made by Novartis in their Pharma plant with HEAVY QC control, while this "Queen City" product is some unknown putting god knows what into gelatin capsules.

IMO, it is better to KNOW what you are paying for than think; "It's holistic so it is safe". What makes it safe is the "Chain of command" of manufacturing and tight quality control. I worked for Abbott Labs in Chicago and if we used BLUE INK on a production workorder-it could be recalled. Yes..blue ink instead of black. Pharma companies and NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory and etc are "5 nines" (99.999) production facilities. We have no tolerance for error.

Everyone should realize its not what is in the product that matters but HOW it is made accurately and reproduceably(precisely).

Holistic, IMHO, lacks the quality control that you will find in any Pharmaceutical plant.

You would never know if that 3000gallon batch of Cedar Oil got a 55 gallon drum of Turpentine accidentally dumped in until it hit the market and your dogs skin. There is no record of it happening.

There is calculated risk in everything. With Pharma plants the mfg error is reduced to near zero and all you have to deal with is the perceived/actual problem with the active ingredient in what ever drug you or your dog is taking manifested as a side effect.

With Holistics and dog food-there is no definitive system of QC and checks and balances. That is why there are so many dog food recalls. There is a HUGE THREAT of the FDA shutting down any Pharma plant at any time (like Novartis in 2012) so they are ever vigilant as to the mfg and testing of every batch before it leaves the facility.

There is no safety out there. Just the search for the most precise manufacturing of whatever you are buying-that would be found in a cGMP(Good Manufacturing Practices) FDA regulated pharma plant.

BTW....I own no stock in Novartis nor am I affiliated with them in any way. They just dominate the market with many of their products for dogs and cats.

John.... Spinosad is the active in Comfortis too. Comfortis and Trifexis have only anecdotal stories out there and during formulation dogs are tested for a myriad of side effects as no Pharma company wants to get hammered with a class action suit or get their "human products" shut down by a FDA 483 mandate dropped on them because of a Vet Science product mistake made at a shared mfg plant. You just don't know how tightly these plants are run and how high the standards of mfg'ing are. As per a topical-Advantage uses Imidacloprid for anti flea. Imidacloprid is marketed by Bayer also as "Merit" for a myriad of non vet uses. It is the safest pharma anti flea I can think of. I am not a fan of topicals as you have to apply it correctly and the non polar solvents( non water ) are probably what is irritating your dogs skin-just as acetone would. Many of the active ingredients in topicals are not soluble in water so they have to use alchohol or etc......That's why I use the oral dosage forms.

Regards...Greg and Taki

[johninny]

Stephanie, just curious how often [ based on a single dog ] you wind up having to treat for HW. i have read as you say if you catch it early [ ''Class 1''] that ivermectin will do the job safely but very slowly - that it would then take 2 years of treatment to clear the dog [ and this approach contra-indicated in dogs whose health for one reason or another may not withstand a prolonged though moderate HW infection ]. what has your experience been?

[MaliNut]

Stephanie...

XLNT points!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After the 2nd DHP-CHP booster no immunizations besides Rabies and occasional Bordatella are needed IMO.

How many times were you immunized? I was immunized once as a kid and my/your white blood cells have a "B Cell" subset containing "B Memory" cells. Once they are exposed to an antigen they will remember it for 20-40 years.


Dogs get so over vaccinated it is ridiculous. Rabies is a legal deal...go for the 3 year shot and I skip the Coronavirus shot as I can not find a documented case in my State.

So after the 2nd DHP-CPV I just run a Bordetella if I ever have to Kennel my dogs-which I have stopped doing.

I don't take Taki to the Dog park as beyond the crazy aggressive dogs they are "cesspools" teeming with every fecal born pathogen from Giardia to Mycobacterium. Especially if the park has a " pond/doggie pool".
I am fortunate to have an Agility Park where we pay to be members of and avoid the psycho dogs and the land mine laden poop fields.

We all hate to battle the bouts of diarrhea and the dogs parks are the epicenter for, IMO, your behaved dog getting attacked or infected.

Anyways......Taki is past her 2nd set of shots so I will just get the 3 yrs rabies going and bank money to use on Chemistry panels.

It's a shame that some Vets have become production facilities where what is not needed is done and what is needed is omitted.

On the topic of poops...If your dog gets severe diarrhea...I recommend, before Flagyl(Metronidazole) is started that the Fecal sample be sent out to IDEXX"S reference lab in California for a "RealPCR DNA Comprehensive Diarrhea panel". It searches for multiple pathogens via DNA analysis and for what you spend on that you save with your Vet throwing "Darts in the dark". 42 per cent of dogs will come back positive for Clostridium Perfringens and 20 per cent of that will be the Enterotoxin A producing subset. 8 per cent come back Giardia positive. So it is usually a Clostridum issue and SIBO. So when you do start on Flagyl I use "Endosorb*made by PRN labs(50 bucks for 500 tabs on Amazon) as it absorbs all the toxins released when the bacterial cell walls are lysed and the bacteria dump their toxins into the upper GI and protects the mucosal lining of the GI tract. It's awesome and works great.

I also use FastBalance GI paste 60 cc (Vetri Science) with any Flagyl or Tylan as it is the most concentrated Probiotic I can find and my vet even Rx's it. Amazon sells that for 25 per 60 cc tube. Amazon also sells Tylan (Tylosin Tarttrate) from Dow-Elanco and Tylan is an absolute "wonder drug" when it comes to IBD.
I can make 200 500mg capsules from 50 dollars worth of Tylan powder. How difficult is it to fill a "0" capsule with 1/8 tsp of Tylan( 1tsp =4000 mg)? 25 cents a capsule done right! My vet is all on board with me handling the easy stuff and I have quite the photo collection of Taki BM's

Oh man...I got started on the poop thing but after losing Razor to PLE I jump on a "cowpie" stat!

[Stacy_R]

My guess is that Jerry Lee is experiencing a build up of toxins and chemicals in his body and just had a reaction. Hopefully it's just a one time thing. Heartworm treatment can be hard on a dog. Did he also get shots at the same time? Most dogs coming out of the shelter environment also get an overload of shots because nobody knows what has been given before and have to immunize for legality or to protect other dogs.

This was my first reaction as well...which is why I asked about vaccinations.

[JerryLeeK9]

My guess is that Jerry Lee is experiencing a build up of toxins and chemicals in his body and just had a reaction. Hopefully it's just a one time thing. Heartworm treatment can be hard on a dog. Did he also get shots at the same time? Most dogs coming out of the shelter environment also get an overload of shots because nobody knows what has been given before and have to immunize for legality or to protect other dogs.

Thanks guys and thanks for hitting on my question, Stephanie. JL did not get any shots this past visit except the two final injections given (two weeks back) on two back to back days. He is due for a handful of vacs in Oct 14' so I assume Oct 13' is when the shelter administered them to begin with.

I think the last 6 months for JL consisted of vacs, antibiotics and above all the actually HW treatment injects (over these last 6 weeks) so I see it very possible that his body is just working hard already and the Frontline Plus may have just been too much for him and caused his lethargy. I ran into someone at work that told me their dog got tired the first time on FL-P but it only happened the first time. My plan is to give it another go when a month is up after the first go.

I got JL a new vet yesterday close to my house (the rescue's vet JL was with is 40 min away) so I will take their recommendation strongly into account. They don't use Frontline so we'll see what they say...

[LyonsFamily]

Stephanie, just curious how often [ based on a single dog ] you wind up having to treat for HW. i have read as you say if you catch it early [ ''Class 1''] that ivermectin will do the job safely but very slowly - that it would then take 2 years of treatment to clear the dog [ and this approach contra-indicated in dogs whose health for one reason or another may not withstand a prolonged though moderate HW infection ]. what has your experience been?

I've never had a positive test and had to treat. Heartworm isn't as big of a threat as it is labelled, especially in the northern states and if dogs are indoor and basic mosquito protection is used during long hikes and camping trips. My dogs don't live a high risk life style. I have given heartworm medication on 1 occasion when reports of infected dogs were high in my area, but then it is only 1-2 doses for the season. My vets have agreed that a dose actually lasts 6-8 weeks.

This is a good page with info on it. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... tworm.aspx In my area, heartworm is only present during July-October anyway and we could get away with doing a "preventative" maybe only twice in that time period.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I actually just read a study that said "seasonal" doses of HW preventative is just as effective as yearly doses. I'll have to pull the link.

[Stacy_R]

Kira....Oooohhh....please do!!!!

And Stephanie ...thanks for the link. I really like dr. Becker.

[johninny]

Stephanie, for some reason i had missed your response to my question. [ edit: oh, because it was just today!] thank you. i knew to some extent that 4 weeks was not the lifespan of 1 hw ''prevention'' dose, but had been winging it. for years i have given no more than 9/year, varying intervals from 5 weeks to 8 [ occasionally longer depending on weather ], but it sounds like i can further stretch all the intervals to reduce the chemicals floating around in the dogs. it sounds like i might get the annual doses down to at least 8 but maybe 7 maximum.
[ w/r/t frontline, the same stretched-interval approach has generally meant 6 applications per year, but can be 1 or 2 more if warm winter. want to see if i can cut that to 2 [or 3 max] applications per year if i add ''holistic'' techniques for flea and TICK management.]

unfortunately, this area is as bad for mosquitoes as it is for ticks - and even worse, one can spray a 1/4 inch thick coating of horrible smelling, dripping rivers of repellent on oneself, then walk outside and be set upon by multiple blood-suckers. in seasons that are wet, i walk the dogs after 5 pm shrouded in dedicated heavy pants, a thick hoodie and a cap visor saturated with repellent; such dog walks in high humidity are like jogging in a steam room in a wool sweater. i envy your geographic advantage insect-wise.

EVERYONE - I POSTED ABOUT MED SOURCES IN PRODUCT REVIEW SECTION. i hope no one will really need them but i have the feeling that some of you because of geography or special needs might find this place very useful.

[MaliNut]

John...

You may want to check that Pharmacy closer. They have 70 complaints w/the BBB of which 28 are in Products/Services. The complaints in the products and services are very serious dosing errors and etc.

Click on the any of the complaint categories and you will see this Pharmacy has issues that would give me serious concerns and find one that is not making serious errors of that magnitude.

http://www.bbb.org/new-york-city/busine ... -ny-71748/

In 2013 there have been 27 bills and/or resolutions filed across 16 States regarding Compounding pharmacies as it is difficult to know" where compounding ends and manufacturing begins".

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/reg ... acies.aspx

Compounding is serious business and should be done, IMO, only by whom your Vet recommends.

Regards...Greg

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Here's the study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21 ... eventative

Basically said that while the smaller portion of their study group was seasonal use, it was no more likely the seasonal group had parasites then the monthly users. Also it was most effective for under 6 month old dogs.

As for the pharmacy I read through some reviews that let me see the details (not all would - maybe I was doing something wrong?) and they sounded mainly like simple mistakes by either consumer or pharmacy. I think all reviews must be looked at with logic and reason as most people will not review with reason and more so with emotion. Everyone should do their research and decide with their vet whether or not to go to a compounding pharmacy. Some vets don't want to take the sales away from their office and others are more willing to help the patient. Johnny has had good experience with them and I value his sharing this info; it is something people may not have been aware of before. I would have never even thought to look at a compounding pharmacy, or that it was even an option, as none of our previous vets even recommended such a thing to use.

[johninny]

Greg, if you are going to post stuff like this, at least look up the right business in the right city. [so KIRA, the info Greg posted pertains to neither of the pharmacies i have referenced. just wait awhile and i am sure he will come up with more relevant reviews.] also, Greg, i take strong exception to other things you had to say in your response to my posting in ''product reviews.''

the AZ pharmacy [ worm meds ] IS recommended by my vet over any commercially available product.
the nyc pharmacy was an absolute must recommended by the best private hospital i know of anywhere, i.e., it has the reputation in the veterinary community for having the very best [ top 1 or 2 ] surgeons and specialists that money can buy on a world-wide basis [ and the quality care-giving that one would hope supplements that ability and expertise].
but, perhaps more importantly, i do not think EVERYONE here has access to great advice from great vets; and you nor i will never know when someone here might find such a facility as the one in nyc to be a godsend.

[MaliNut]

John...

I was referring to the last sentence in your post in Product Reviews that said...

"in such cases, i then INSIST that the vet call in the prescription for separate fulfillment - whether to MY local pharmacy or to the pet pharmacy listed below].

so worth knowing this place exists but hope no one ever needs it:
BEST PET Rx, LLC 1751 2nd ave, NY 10128 tel 212 348 1800 fax 212 348 3037"

I am not here to win a "popularity contest" and if you take exception to the links I have posted that is not my problem.

You have you areas of expertise and so do I. Mine happens to be Pharmacy.

I'm not giving advice on investments or art collecting. Just Pharmacy.

Regards...Greg

[johninny]

but you are making comments about complaints and bad reputation of a business that you have pulled out of thin air and saying i should do better research on the business i referenced. now in your response here, you still do not even acknowledge that you are supplying false info [ which i DO recognize was almost certainly a mistake ].

about your quote from me above: for everyday stuff, it is a moot point. but if someone has a very sick dog where a lot of expensive meds are really necessary, it can be very painful and maybe even impossible to shell out hundreds or thousands for drugs. in a case where a vet may be more concerned with his quality of life than your dog's survival, it is good to know that there may be a better choice; it really could make the difference between some dogs getting what they need or going without since the price difference between a disreputable vet and the same branded [ not compounded ] drug from a pharmacy near you can be huge - like saving 70% on some things. i find it truly hard to believe that you think that using a real pharmacy - local or otherwise - rather than your vet's backroom as a drug source is controversial. [ now i can personally over-pay a disreputable vet if necessary, but i find doing so morally repugnant and rather than advancing the business interests of such vets, i try to work against them and steer people's business to vets that know what they are doing and do not try to financially rape their clients. ]

discussion of popularity really really misses the point. if you have not noticed, i seem to be quite unpopular, but if i have some info that may help one person i will offer it if i think it potentially important for that one person - and i count very much on others here doing the same for me.

as to your pharmacy credentials [ whatever they may be], if they do not reveal themselves in your posts, then i think they do not matter. [ i do not think the following the least bit relevant to my posts, but i feel like saying it, so here goes: 2 branches of my family, respectively, have been involved in pharmaceuticals/pharmacy and medicine for 100 years in the case of the former and for several hundred years in the case of the latter. it is due to their collective brilliance that i as an autistic born in 1951 had any decent chance of living my life outside of an institution. being an autistic allowed to be all i could be, i won a number of national biology competitions at a very early age, and then was sought by many respected east coast universities to pursue any scientific endeavors i wished, though nuclear chemistry and quantum mechanics - not biology - were the areas of my talent that most interested me and most others. i also have a memory that most people would find unimaginable - which makes for interesting results in itself when combined with an autistic's other natural talent to relate bits of information that do not normally reside in the same space. my strange talents have led to many weird things in my life, but, continuing this bizarre path, most oddly that 9 heads of state or government have called upon me for advice in diverse areas. so when a certain individual who lives in a community that has literally nothing except beach, boats and golf attacks me as a know-nothing ''beach bum'', i find it really rude and very presumptuous. [especially frustrating since i have not sunbathed on a beach since i was 4 years old and had no say in the matter; have always hated laying on the beach with a passion!]