Long Hair Dutch Shepherds in west central Illinois

[Paints-n-cows]

Good morning.

Currently, I have a young long hair Dutch Shepherd that is AKC FSS and UKC registered. He is right at 5 months old. He came out of Michigan from two long hair parents that are imports. The sire came from France and the dam came from Czechoslovakia. Both parents are FCI dogs. The littermate to his sire is an active detection dog in Paris.

As I write this, we are in Florida after attending the Eukenuba National Championship. I showed my hounds in the preceding shows as well the "big show" on Saturday. My female Bluetick got a reserve major win and my English got a Winner's dog in his breed.

A supporting kennel club to Eukenuba had a an FSS and Misc show on Friday with an attendance of 4 long hair Dutch Shepherds and 2 rough coat Dutch Shepherds. My pup went Opposite Winner behind a mature rough coat.

My significant other also has a female long hair that is an FCI pup that she imported from Finland. This pup is just about 7 months old. She always had GSDs but was and is very disappointed with the direction that the breeders of the GSDs are and have been going for the last 30+ years. She fell in love with the disposition, looks, and health of the long hair DS that we saw at a conformation show. After a lot of research on the breed and searching for breeders, she finally was able to bring her pup home. This female pup's mannerisms and intelligence is what convinced me to try one of these dogs as well.

Every dog show and/or event that we attend, the pups get all kind of attention and questions. My pup is very alert and does not miss anything that goes on. The female pup is very attentive and very affectionate. Both pups are openly seeking new things to learn on a daily basis but are very calm when asked to be. This weekend they accepted all of the noise and commotion of the 4,800+ dogs and thousands of people with no more than plussing than if they were going to the local sporting goods store with us. They are not aggressive toward other dogs or people that they do not know.

One thing that has impressed me is his willingness to accept commands and corrections without resentment. There has yet to be anything that he is not willing to try. Both pups get along great with our other dogs and people...yet they never loose sight or focus on where we as their owners are.

I competitively hunt and show conformation with Bluetick and English Coonhounds. I have an competitively hunt 6 Blueticks and the 1 English Coonhound. Of these 7 dogs, I actively show in conformation all but one of the Blueticks. My purpose and goal of my kennel operation is to raise dual purpose dogs and have been very successful with my female being the #4 ranked Bluetick in UKC in 2014.

These pups are so impressive that two other friends of mine from the dog showing world are actively looking for two more long hair Dutch Shepherds for the conformation ring as well.

My intent is not only show but to look into perhaps the agility aspect of this breed as well.

[Raven]

Welcome to the forum. We require pictures, you know....

[Mark77]

I don't get the point of conformation. These dogs like biting people and jumping over things to bite people or if you have more than one- biting eachother. However they are great dogs and a lot of fun.

[Raven]

These dogs like biting people and jumping over things to bite people

Would you mind elaborating on this--or clarifying, I guess I should say. I DON'T disagree with your statement...though in a previous post you mentioned something about them not being aggressive, and later said that aggression is learned. So these three things strung together, if my logic is on target, would mean, in your view, that only DS who have been taught to bite/show aggression will do so. But then again, that can't be, since you stated the above-quoted comment without the benefit of other (or, the other two) statements.

A bit confused and just trying to get a cohesive feel to your opinion(s).

[Mark77]

These dogs like biting people and jumping over things to bite people

Would you mind elaborating on this--or clarifying, I guess I should say. I DON'T disagree with your statement...though in a previous post you mentioned something about them not being aggressive, and later said that aggression is learned. So these three things strung together, if my logic is on target, would mean, in your view, that only DS who have been taught to bite/show aggression will do so. But then again, that can't be, since you stated the above-quoted comment without the benefit of other (or, the other two) statements.

A bit confused and just trying to get a cohesive feel to your opinion(s).

All three are true. Dutch Shepherds and Malinois are not aggressive by nature, will naturally enjoy biting and aggression is taught. At least for the dogs I've seen. For example, the Malinois puppy I have, she's now 18 mos old and ever since she was a pup, she bites then hangs onto things as a tension reliever or when she's overly excited. She doesn't bite people, she bites objects like my wife's purse or a towel that I might be holding- but it has to have opposite resistance, she'll just hang onto it. As soon as there is no resistance, she loses interest. I'm not talking about typical dog behavior chewing on things or just playing tug, I'm talking about biting and hanging on until either surrendering the item to the dog or physically pulling the dog off. That is a purpose bred Mal. It's part of the bred in instincts now turning that instinct to bite people is the next step. She doesn't bite out of aggression, more as that is what she naturally knows what to do.

My first trainer I had wouldn't let a dog bite a sleeve for the first time until it learned obedience. Problem is that I've found suppressing that natural behavior in a Mal or a Dutch, makes them bite instead out of fear or they become extremely protective. I'm not a trainer so I did what I would do with the dogs I owned before. Introduce the puppy to a ton of people at a young age. As many people as possible so it doesn't learn to fear strangers but instead looks to the owner for a reaction. The puppy we have now is my wife's dog, she never introduced it to anybody, she never socialized the animal. As such it has the potential to be a fear biter which is dangerous and is the reason I'm now working with the dog.

Finally aggression has to be taught. All dogs already knows how to bite, Mal's/Dutchies are on the next level and love biting stuff or playing with a tug etc. Initially though, hitting a sleeve is natural for these dogs but adding pressure at the same time, hitting the dog- causes it to become angry. A weaker dog will just try to get away, these dogs don't- they keep trying to hang on, add even more pressure, piss the dog off more and it then fights through that fear of the pressure to learn to focus that aggression. Eventually it gets over the hump and learns when things are taken up a notch, it needs to keep fighting. PSA and KNPV put a ton of pressure and unpredictable situations on the dogs, where as Schutzhund does not from what I've been told from the PSA trainers.

Again, I'm not a trainer- so my opinions mean little in the grand scheme of things. The other reason these dogs like doing stuff in general, they just like learning. The protection stuff is one aspect, they can easily learn other avenues or sports as well.


M

[Mark77]

DT

[Dutchringgirl]

we had a long discussion about aggression, I am not sure you are using the word the way we are thinking about it.

we also did sleeve biting along with ob training so the dog can learn both at the same time and the biting was fun and a reward for the dog.

I am also very disappointed with how the GSD has become over the years.

[Raven]

About a dog releasing an object in its mouth by releasing the tension: at least with Thor, he had to be taught to out. He has a few cues to release, for example with a tug, and one is I put slack in the tension...but he had to learn that. Now, if we're talking another animal--once he kills it, yeah, he's done with it. It's not moving. Interest gone. For Thor, anyway, him backing off an object in his mouth comes from two different places: one learned, the other prey drive. (Poorly worded, but maybe good enough to be understood.)

[Dutchringgirl]

Usually when you let go of an object, it lets the dog win so they continue to play, not to release. "out" is usually the let go cue. Pro

[Mark77]

we had a long discussion about aggression, I am not sure you are using the word the way we are thinking about it.

we also did sleeve biting along with ob training so the dog can learn both at the same time and the biting was fun and a reward for the dog.

I am also very disappointed with how the GSD has become over the years.

You can get the dogs aggression up when you start crowding the dog, hitting the dog, yelling and it keeps fighting, turning it up a notch. Basically adding pressure on the dog to quit. The dog goes from "hey this is fun" to "I want to kill you because you piss me off so much".

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First off, welcome Paints-n-cows! It's a pleasure to have you and yes, pics are always wanted!

Second, the "point" of conformation, at least as I understand it and I would love for Paints-n-cows to correct me if I am wrong, is to judge dogs based on their phenotype traits against the breed standard of their respective breed. The more closely the dog looks like the breed standard, as determined in this case by FCI, the better "representative" they are of the breed and, of course, if your breeding program focuses on looks above traits, the more likely the dog will be bred. This is also why we have registries such as UKC and AKC, to protect breeds and continue them as defined by breed standards. I know UKC focuses more on the whole dog package, that is a dog that can also work as well as meet the breed standards, more so than AKC. However, this is not saying that they are wildly different from each other either, as part of the breed standard is being able to "imagine the dog performing their respective duties".

Thirdly, there is a lot of your opinion based in context with your dogs, which is fine. However, the truth of the matter is that these dogs were originally bred to defend sheep, which requires targeted aggression, and since then have been further bred to work hard jobs, also which requires aggression. So yes, they by nature are aggressive, however, that is like saying all Rottweilers or pitbulls are aggressive. Breeding programs have a lot of influence on the genetics of the dogs we own. While your dogs may not possess the drive to be civil or what you may term "aggression", others do, and for the most part, the ability to utilize that level of aggression is innate in all the dogs, but through a combo of genetics, personality, and training, may not be brought forth without a lot of effort. The individual dog may not show a desire for it, but that's also like saying just because Shamu was raised by humans it did not possess the desire to hunt or hurt them.

There is also the matter of aggression. You can view the other threads where we outline the terms of aggression, but the fact is your own dog is aggressive in a way by your own wording - I believe it was Mobil's post about the fence and how your had to change fencing because your dog went after another dog. Was that taught? I assume no, and the arguments of "protecting property" or "trespassing" are invalid because they all speak to the innate nature of these dogs to be aggressive. Now, just because a dog does this once does not label the dog aggressive as society would, but just reminds us of the point of this dog - to protect - and that there are still drives for this type of "aggression" inside each and every dog, despite nature and training.

The matter of obedience before bite work is common belief in old school trainers. The idea is that you are showing the dog "you are boss" and put it in the mood to "work". Depending on the dog, this can be an ideal situation. However, there are tons of dogs who do better if bite work is done before obedience. Why? Because the obedience portion is too hard on the dog, usually negative reinforcement, and shuts down the dog's desire to bite. By the time the sleeve is introduced, the dog has no will to bite, but is forced to, which can create a reactive biter. However to say that this "represses their instincts and causes fear biters" really would be a stretch and I would absolutely love to know the number of dogs, video of training sessions, history, and pedigree before I consider such nonsense. The creation of a fear biter is where the dog learns that to ease stress on its system, lashing out makes it go away - in this case it would be over use of negative enforcement, stress by forcing a dog to "socialize" or confront something it fears before it is ready.

Aggression can be taught to a degree, as PSA and dog sports do, however, if this was true then every lab that went through PSA would become "aggressive", with or without control. You would have dogs live biting everywhere. Here's the truth about dog sports: not every dog is cut out to work in dog sports, which is why most of the clubs test dogs before allowing them to train. They are testing for drives as well as the ability to handle pressure and the innate ability to be aggressive. If you are lacking the last requirement, this does not mean you cannot compete. I have seen IPO dogs that presented with a threat of a man with hidden equipment, had no idea how or where to bite, and ended up either shutting down and running or simply staying in a bark and hold. Why? Because aggression in this case was not taught - the game of biting the sleeve was - and without the signals of the sleeve like in IPO the dog had no idea how to respond. Same with most sport dogs, although not 100% true, if you take away the suit, the sleeve, and presentation, most dogs will not bite. Why? Aggression is not taught in this case. The game of barking and biting is. Now, if you are talking about LE K9s or PPDs, again, these are jobs for every dog - innate aggression MUST be in the dog, as well as the urge to go after the human. These are dogs that will spit out whatever you put in their mouth and go after the equipmentless man. Again, does with innate aggression that is not taught, but harnessed. Can you take a sport dog and teach him PPD? Yes. Is he effective in a real situation? From my personal experience, no, unless the dog already has the makings of a man dog. Again, aggression can be taught in terms of a game or in terms of honing what a dog has. Even training a "watch" command where the dog barks and acts threatening is not true aggression unless the dog is dedicated and cannot be run, and will bite when pressed.

KNPV is not unpredictable situations - it's exercises are clearly outlined. I can pull them for you if you want. You may be thinking of Mondio and PSA. The reason why KNPV is so challenging is the degree of control of the dogs must show to even pass with a good score.

In tugging, the game is in the resistance, and letting go lets the dog win. Not many dogs are interested in toys once the have won. My own dog tugs for the joy of possessing but it is short lived. Once you let go, the game is done, and interest is lost. Same way ME teaches the out - stand still and stop moving - the toy is dead and there is no active resistance. It is not a purpose bred mal as labs and bird dogs possess the same drives. It is the love of tug and the interaction with the owner.

Lastly, the analogy that hitting a dog makes them angry and is therefore pressure these dogs can stand, is false. I have seen many dogs crumble when the helper leans over them while they are on the sleeve, and many more run when the decoy charges them. They were mals and dutches who loved to tug and bite. I have also seen mals take a beating as young dogs on their first bite and never come off. Hitting did not make them angry. If you are training with a trainer who thinks hitting a dog is pressure, please immediately stop going to that trainer. They are very dangerous and do not properly understand pressure. Also all stick hits in any sport, except KNPV, are not actually hitting the dog with force. They use clatter sticks to make loud sounds, but when they "hit" the dog it isn't with much force at all. There are very few times a dog should "fight" like what you are describing to get through pressure, and that is in MWDs where lives are on the line. Dog sports do not train like that, the reputable ones at least. They train by slow pressure at the dog's level, acclimatizing the dog it it and letting the dog realize it's part of the game, and more importantly the dog always wins. Once you trigger "fight", you've triggered defense drive, and that dog may eat you up.

That being said, there are dogs who if you use a clatter stick dig in more. Again, though, that's innate and goes against your idea that aggression is taught. My friend has a mal like that. You can kick, punch, and slam things on him when he's on the bite and all he'll do is dig in. He enjoys the fight like a shark enjoys blood in the water. But he was not trained to do that. He's had that since he was little.

I apologize to Paints-n-cows for hijacking your thread. I personally cannot wait to see pics of your dog!

[Mark77]

Right now I got the puppy Mal to focus on then hopefully soon I can get dickhead Riddick back up there for more bite work that he loves doing. I didn't want to focus on personal protection as in, no off switch command from what I was seeing- I needed him to shut it down on command but so far we didn't do that. Something about a good protection dog doesn't have an off switch otherwise they are waiting for that command which reduces their drive but instead need to pulled off by the handler- which is what we were doing so far. Now sporting dogs, they obviously have an out command and hopefully we work up to that. I only want that the dog reacts on command, I don't care about the off switch as much as I do about the on- for liability reasons. Again, I'm not a trainer so I try on some level to listen to what people tell me who have been doing this longer than I have.

M

[LyonsFamily]

Second, the "point" of conformation, at least as I understand it and I would love for Paints-n-cows to correct me if I am wrong, is to judge dogs based on their phenotype traits against the breed standard of their respective breed. The more closely the dog looks like the breed standard, as determined in this case by FCI, the better "representative" they are of the breed and, of course, if your breeding program focuses on looks above traits, the more likely the dog will be bred. This is also why we have registries such as UKC and AKC, to protect breeds and continue them as defined by breed standards. I know UKC focuses more on the whole dog package, that is a dog that can also work as well as meet the breed standards, more so than AKC. However, this is not saying that they are wildly different from each other either, as part of the breed standard is being able to "imagine the dog performing their respective duties".

This is true, and I'll add to it as someone who grew up in the Junior's ring and also showed field bred English Setters in UKC conformation. Conformation means conforming to the standard, but the dog is also judged for moment, proper structure, and angulation, etc. Field bred setters don't get put up in AKC shows, but UKC accepts them and will evaluate them based on how well it appears that they're built to work. There is a lot of value in evaluating the conformation of a dog as part of an overall breeding program that also includes health tests, titling the dog, researching pedigrees, etc.

Without being well built, a working dog will break down over time and getting an outside opinion on how the dog is built is very very important when breeding dogs. We see a lot of so called "working" dogs being titled to a level 1 or level 2 title around age 2, and then retired to breeding without any proof of longevity. While a good working breeder can compare structure and talk to others in the breed about it, too many get kennel blind and don't evaluate dogs on anything beyond bitework and drive. Breeding only for work without considering structure is just as bad as breeding only for conformation and not working the dog.

I think a lot of working folks tend to just look at the American Showlines for the GSDs and think there isn't any value in a conformation evaluation, but there are a lot more GSDs out there than the crippled few that you see top paid handlers winning with and a conformation championship shouldn't be the only thing used to evaluate a good dog.

In Germany, ALL GSDs must pass a conformation examination as well as some sort of working test (bitework or herding). I'm a big fan of IABCA shows since they're similar to the German style evaluations and every dog gets critiqued individually and beating another dog is not required for a championship, just meeting the standard in appearance and having correct structure and movement. It's also a fun sport for many people. To tell someone the breed doesn't belong in the conformation ring is ignorant. There's nothing wrong with a good looking dog that can work, especially when it is better put together than a lot of working line dogs. We should be saying these dogs shouldn't JUST be bred for conformation. I think we need more working dogs in the conformation ring to give judges something to look at. Cudos to the OP for having the goal of dual purpose dogs with the other breeds.

UKC's breed standard is owned by UKC and the parent club helped form it. While it's very close to FCI, the FCI doesn't have any say in US conformation shows unless our kennel clubs decide to use their standards as a base. We don't have to follow FCI standards if the parents clubs and kennel clubs decide not to. I may be wrong, but I believe UKC is the only kennel club that allows the blue dogs in conformation.

For the OP, there are a lot of us that do agility with our dogs. Mine are also great at nosework and we enjoy Rally as well.

[funkyhunky]

Right now I got the puppy Mal to focus on then hopefully soon I can get dickhead Riddick back up there for more bite work that he loves doing. I didn't want to focus on personal protection as in, no off switch command from what I was seeing- I needed him to shut it down on command but so far we didn't do that. Something about a good protection dog doesn't have an off switch otherwise they are waiting for that command which reduces their drive but instead need to pulled off by the handler- which is what we were doing so far. Now sporting dogs, they obviously have an out command and hopefully we work up to that. I only want that the dog reacts on command, I don't care about the off switch as much as I do about the on- for liability reasons. Again, I'm not a trainer so I try on some level to listen to what people tell me who have been doing this longer than I have.

M

Considering that you want to breed your "stud", your lack of knowledge is shocking!
dan

[centrop67]

First, let me welcome Paints-n-cows to the forum.

Unfortunately, he or she has not been back since the first reply to the post. If you come back, we'd sure love to see pictures. Long-Haired Dutch Shepherds could possibly be the most beautiful dogs in the world.


Gentle suggestion: continue the breeding/conformation discussions in the appropriate threads.

Let's try to keep the new member announcement area as a welcome mat for new members, experience, and knowledge (plus pictures of new dogs).

Thank you.

[Mark77]

Delete

[Dutchringgirl]

You can get the dogs aggression up when you start crowding the dog, hitting the dog, yelling and it keeps fighting, turning it up a notch. Basically adding pressure on the dog to quit. The dog goes from "hey this is fun" to "I want to kill you because you piss me off so much".

Adding pressure on the dog to quit? The added pressure, hitting, yelling is to ramp up the drive for more bite, not to quit. It is never brought to the point of getting the dog to want to kill you, they never get the dog to cross that line, then the dog becomes deadly and thats no good.

[Mark77]

Adding pressure on the dog to quit? The added pressure, hitting, yelling is to ramp up the drive for more bite, not to quit. It is never brought to the point of getting the dog to want to kill you, they never get the dog to cross that line, then the dog becomes deadly and thats no good.

Oh trust me, from what I've seen- the trainers try to get them to quit or shut down. They want to see whether the dog will move out or keep in the fight. My dog gets so pissed he hits with all four off the floor and because he runs out of line- ends up doing a backflip and slamming onto the ground. I don't see how he does it and it worries me that he might get hurt. I guess we are teaching him to pace himself a little and not get so amped up where he tires out. The trainers do push the dogs quite a bit both the police K9's and protection dogs because I assume they want to be sure the dogs won't shut down in the real world.

[Dutchringgirl]

Maybe Ive been out and things changed or I didnt see that, but when I trained we didnt push the dog to quit. We pushed them to bite harder and if it got to the point where we saw them starting to back off, we backed off first so they would not loose the drive

My trainer also trained police dogs. Maybe I didnt see that part of the training.

Runs out of line and does a back flip? What are you doing to get this? What are you training him to do?

[Mark77]

Maybe Ive been out and things changed or I didnt see that, but when I trained we didnt push the dog to quit. We pushed them to bite harder and if it got to the point where we saw them starting to back off, we backed off first so they would not loose the drive

My trainer also trained police dogs. Maybe I didnt see that part of the training.

Runs out of line and does a back flip? What are you doing to get this? What are you training him to do?

The dog jumps off the ground trying to connect the bite but because he's tethered, he runs out of line which causes his momentum to sweep his legs forward and his body slams on the ground. I think it is to train him to not lose control of his body without his feet touching the ground. The other dogs in the class don't seem to get airborn and I think maybe it's discouraged. I'm afraid he's going to break a leg or rib so I'm hoping he figures out soon not to just jump with all his body off the ground.