Blood trailing vs drive tracking vs IPO tracking

[TimL_168]

Good evening everyone,
Almost two months ago, I happened across a post aimed at re-homing a basically "washed out" SAR dog. The reason she washed out was her prey drive, allegedly. They couldn't keep her off of game trails during cadaver source searches. The previous owner/handler described the dog as "lower drive" than what she wanted. We met. Endeavor jumped up and nipped my shoulder. It all went pretty well. A week later we got Aurora and Endeavor together and they really hit it off. She's been with me for almost a month now, and progressing every day.
My question follows, and I realize that there might not be any specific experience in the field, but I'm just looking for other opinions to help me out. I've been using my Shiloh for blood trailing game for about 7 years now. I just kinda stumbled into her ability to track, and we've worked a lot on it since then. It's mostly been me following her lead. When she's on a trail, her head undulates a bit but is generally close to the ground. When she breaks off the trail, her head rises and she makes small arcs until she locates it again. The problem I have with her is drive, not nose. If the trail is too sporadic, she gives up. She looks at me for direction. I'm thinking that might be partly my fault. It's difficult to remember so long ago, but I think I remember guiding her back onto training tracks when she would stray. I think at that point I was still leaving bits of meat along the track. My reasoning was that guiding her back to the track was secondary to the self fulfilling pleasure of the chase/ finding meat. Endeavor is another story. The first few short tracks I put her on she stabbed her face into the grass and bulldozed straight to the end. Now that she's settled in with us, she's more energetic. She will now break off the track pretty easily. When this dog breaks off though, she's making these crop circle sized arcs at break neck speed. She'll run right over a well laid, easy drag line. I've been keeping my corrections very neutral. When she veers off and isn't coming back the right way, I'll reel her in and give her a start over command and take her to where she broke. My concern...Almost fear is that if I give to much guidance or correction to something that she can do well and have fun with, that I will be stifling her drive.
She's harder to read because of her speed, and the fact that we're both learning about each other. She raises her head when she loses scent, but not 100% consistently. It may be that I just have to start laying far longer trails and letting her work her own way along
Ugh...I'm about to pass out now. I've sent an email to her previous owner with some "technical"questions about Endeavor's experience and training. I'm also hoping to contact a guy that uses dachshunds for tracking game.
Exhausted...
Any input anyone may have will help me make my training decisions!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First a head's up on I'm a phone with autocorrect so I apologize for any random corrections and hope this will be somewhat eligible lol.

I'll start with Endeavor. When her head pops up is her nose slightly angled upwards? It sounds like she's air scenting to gather the trail. This isn't uncommon. Each dog has their own tracking style and I've noticed my guy will do the same before heading off on a trail. The arcing is casting, where they're deciding where the trail goes and which way to follow. Generally this will happen when something has gone over the trail or the wind shifts, or there's conflicting scent they are shifting through. As far as her coming off, tracking is as much obedience as it is drive. If H comes off a trail, I telling him no, and motion to the track and give him his track command. We had a lot of practice where if he didn't do it he got put up and no food until he tracked. He quickly learned the fastest way to food and fun was completing the track. Now if I see him get distracted I say no and he goes back to work. So as far as what you're doing, you have the right idea, I would honestly add soft praise as soon as she gets back on track to encourage her even more. Not too loud, don't want to distract her, but soft. I would go to shorter tracks and proof her from there to see if what is happening is her getting confused from the trail or if she's being stubborn. Two totally different responses to those situations.

As far as Auora, it sounds like she may need a bit of drive building to encourage her problem solving. If she goes back to you it's a signal that she's lost the track and sometimes that's the honest truth. So I would set up varying trails and see how she handles on them, increasing in difficulty until you find her problem area. For example, if the trail is gone, and she comes back to you, that's perfectly acceptable. But if she can't tell the difference between the scent and where another animal crossed it, that's something to work on. Increasing drive through food/play would also help to see if it's just the fact she gets bored on long trails and decides this is boring.

As far as types of trailing, blood trailing is more imprinting blood scent and following it, man trailing/tracking is air scenting or actual footstep tracking, and IPO tracking is mostly obedience precision tracking. I would read up on the theory of scent dispersal and tracking to get a good idea of what may be happening so you can help the dogs through it. I know there was a topic about scent work and some links I posted in that thread would help you out.

[TimL_168]

Endeavor's tracking/detection style is one of the things I discussed with the previous owner. From her description and my observation, Endeavor uses a very good balance of air scenting and track scenting. When she brings her head up while on a track, it's typically to about level. Maybe inclined. She's definitely casting. My dilemma is when she launches herself so far off the track (30 or 40 feet). I've read that forcing(teaching) the dog to keep it's nose down and on the track can stifle drive. IPO tracking won't work for us anyhow: there can be very little actual blood on a trail, and very long jumps that I believe would pose a problem.
All of my input is very low intensity with their work. They're happy to be doing it, and I don't want to affect that negatively.
The trails I'm working Endeavor on now are very short. I started at around 40 yards, but I've backed it down to 10-20 until I figure out how to proceed. I think part of her behavior is a result of her knowledge that there's meat at the end of the trail. I'm not entirely sure, but I think she's coming of the track early to get into the wind and find the meat directly. That's what had me considering a longer track. Gotta run now. Thanks for the reply, and I'll search for the other info when I get some down time at work today.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

How close to her are you when you track? I would shorten the lead so she can't get very far off track until this is resolved. If she jumps off track, Mark no, and redirect her to track. If she tries to jump again, put her up and wait for about 15 mins out of sight. Then redo it. Rinse and repeat. She does not get fed until she tracks. If she's trying to jump to the meat, which honestly I totaled believe may be what's happening, then she understands the concept and is trying to short cut. To prevent short cutting, she has to learn that every route she tries that is not tracking ends in not getting the meat. If she gets fed, even later, it's still a route she can try again. They are crafty and sometimes you gotta be a little more strict until they learn "oh, this is the only way it works" because they will try every way until they find a work around.

The way she tracks sounds exactly like my guy on man tracks which I like. There's a lot of wind play that can happen, heat and cold, and changes in the earth that can mess with scent trails. The IPO style doesn't necessarily kill drive if done correctly, and there are pleanty of PSK9s that will track almost IPO style without being in IPO, but for its use its a lot of work when her style works fine for what you need. IPO is more about keeping nose to ground/finding objects if I remember correctly. It's all in how they're taught and if they like the work.

Yeah tracking doesn't require a lot of intensity from handler, except when they reach the end and reward, and that's more just overlaying so when you're on a track you can start using a toy instead of food as reward. Unless there's some significant scent interference she shouldn't be casting on a short trail... Then again, with blood, there may be a problem with how you're laying it? Maybe start off with more of a line then reduce down to jumps as she gets more confident? I do the same when laying tracks - start off with a scent pad and drag from there for a foot before laying real hard footprints, make the trail real clear, then start shortening the amount of scent (or time I spent laying scent) and only go back up to super clear scent trails when in reintroducing turns or new surfaces.

[TimL_168]

Right now, I'm dragging chunks of thawed meat that I've set aside from last year for just this purpose. I think that gives a good, solid drag line to get the dogs used to the work. I use an 8 foot stick with a string on the end to drag the line and keep my feet as far away as possible. I've contemplated using a fishing rod and casting the line as far as I can and reeling it in to completely avoid any interference with my footsteps.
I took the same approach with Aurora that you mentioned- making the trails more difficult& realistic, but heaping on the scent when initially adding turns or distractions. She does ok. I don't think she's got the energy to drag her 95 lbs of hair very far. She's also starting to show her 9½ years... I did start Aurora on just a leash, and guide her to stay on a track. But she was always slow and methodical. I've been working Endeavor on a long line. I'll bring her near the start of the drag. She knows exactly what's going on. I give the find it and let her take out the line a bit as I follow.
This morning, I put her on about a fifty yard drag right next to a fence, do she couldn't get more than a couple feet off on the one side. About halfway in, I dropped a golf ball sized chunk of meat and made a left turn. I dropped two more pieces within ten feet of the turn. She got right to the trail. Followed it well. She overshot the turn, but doubled back and found the track and the first piece after the turn. Went straight past the second piece. Followed the track very well and found the piece at the end. I praised. Brought her around to the beginning again. This time she went a lot slower and kept her nose lower. She still cut the corner, but she was working the wind there. She found the last piece on that second attempt. I wonder what it is that changed her behavior on the second run?

[TimL_168]

In terms of actual blood, I'm down to one frozen bottle, and I'm trying to hold on to it until I get some more time behind her. I could use pig or cow blood. I'm pretty sure I could get it fresh locally. But, I've heard both positive and negative about it, and could understand both. I'm also going to introduce some hide into the whole scenario at some point. Hopefully I can get some phone time with the other tracker I know and get his input on that. I believe his dachshunds are following the individual animal's scent as much as the blood.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

That was the other thing I was wondering about - the animal scent versus blood. So you're using the meat as sort of a food scent trail to get her used to the idea of tracking, then I imagine you'd do the same with the hide, then blood, then combine them in a more realistic manner. Are you going into the wind when you start? I'm assuming you are. You should be able to once she is good to then go any direction into the wind. I would also advise to lay a trail in a relatively unused area, and the next trail 20 feet from that, and if you're tracking the next day in a totally different area and rest the previous area at least three days.

I would keep Endeavor on a shorter leash and work out to the amount you'll be using. I do man tracking so my guy is never more than 6-10 feet from me. We started with me at his shoulder and as he gained confidence and knowledge I started to move away. Turns I've found they over shoot or work about 2-4 feet to the side of the actual trail due to wind changes. They eventually get closer as they get more experience. I would suggest that when she starts casting to stop and hold still, giving her enough line for her to work the area, and only move when it looks like she has the trail again. When you're laying the tracks this is easier and prevents messing up the scent trail because you know where she needs to go.

I love it when they skip over food. Means they're into the track. Sounds like you're starting her off nicely and just need the fine tuning with her. It also sounds like Aurora is methodical and Endeavor is more of the fast and looser type tracker, which is fine as long as she's accurate. You can tighten her up by guiding her a bit more to the trail, and build speed later by putting more back pressure on her so she pulls into the track.

[TimL_168]

I was hoping to hear the advise to tighten up on her and guide her a little! I've ordered a couple books and although they're really about working bloodhounds, i think they'll be helpful for my uses. The big thing I was worried about is making her reliant on me when things get difficult. Where Aurora fails is(mainly) when an animal jumps into a briar thicket. I've tried laying tracks on both sides of one, and guiding her around to look on another side. She just keeps going back to the last scent and looking at me. Endeavor had some experience with obstacle working. I hope to get past that quickly and get her tuned up by September.
I'm mostly working in my back yard every couple days. It's been raining for most of a month here...
Another thing I've been thinking about doing with her is general area searches. There's a ton of places for me to tuck away a scrap of deer hide or her tug and just let her roam and find it. I have Aurora search for the kids. They enjoy it. Endeavor is way too sharp to do that with them. Do you think doing two different types of searching would conflict with her main job?
Thanks so much for the input! I'm pretty confident in my training strategy, but she has great potential and I'm trying to not make any mistakes.

[TimL_168]

Oops. Forgot. I haven't taken the wind into great consideration when laying the track. Really, only when I'm working close to something that I think would obfuscate the scent. I do try to keep my own scent as far away as possible from the track. When I first started with Aurora after she surprisingly led me to a lost deer, it became apparent to me that I had inadvertently taught her to follow my scent as much as the training track. It was a mistake, but she's pretty forgiving to work with.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

When I get a spare minute I can tell you how I start a dog and work through that, and you can maybe adapt some of those techniques? I'm not too familiar on hunting tracking, but the principles aren't radically different from what you're saying you have done in the past.

As far as searches, I don't think that would be bad. It's sort of the same concept and gets her some more experience. If you're worried you could put a different command to it but it's still experience all the same. I do tracking and detection and it's two different commands but works the same principles my dog uses to find things.

Old scent trails can mix with the new and while she should follow the newest, it can add to some confusion until she figures it out.

[TimL_168]

I'm keen to the trashing up my yard with scent. I try not to overdo it for concern that she'll become desensitized.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but even with a background in hunting and long range rifle comp, I never considered the wind as much for tracking purposes. I dug up a few things you posted and it was eye opening! I think I'm going to use separate commands(probably the ones she's used to from cadaver work) for searches versus trailing. There's definitely a use for it in the field. I've got some crazy stories from the field with Aurora. As blundering as she is, when she catches a scent in the wind it's like you caught her nose with a fish hook.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

How I start a dog on a scent trail:
Lay track into the wind.
First lay a scent pad and mark the four corners and center with hotdogs.
Drag feet from scent pad to first two or four steps, and place hotdog under foot either before “taking” the step or after. Make sure to really crush grass to leave strong scent. This creates a direct line from large area of scent to trail to guide the dog.
Each step, make sure to crush grass and leave hotdog in foot print. Footsteps are very close together at this point.
Track is roughly 3-5 feet to start with.
I softly praise frequently on first tracks.
At end of trail, crush a smaller area and leave small pile of hotdogs or just leave small pile at end of track and take large step off track.

When I start a dog, I use a collar and 6 foot leash. Leash is under the dog to help keep head down, and I’m right by their shoulder the entire time. I usually down them in the scent pad, then give the track command and motion with my hand. I keep the leash tight and work the trail with them. If they start to go off, I motion back to the trail and when they turn towards it, mark it with a duration marker (good) softly. Since leash is tight they can’t go investigate other scents. Every time they come off I motion to the track, only giving the track command if it looks like they are confused. At end of trail it’s a big party! Rinse and repeat several times. At this point, the dog should not be fighting me or popping up a lot. If they do, and I feel like there is nothing going in their head, I put the dog up with no food until next track. A hungry dog means a better worker, and a better worker gets more rewards, and more rewards means a better positive association.

As the dog gets better, the trail lengthens, the steps widen, we go into the wind, closeness of handler, and praise, and the amount of time I spend crushing the grass shortens. The last thing I work on is making the scent pad smaller (after turns and 90 degree angles have been mastered). We track over different surfaces, through things, and around things. By the time the dog starts casting for scent, I’m a bit of a distance back, so I can stop and watch until they tell me which way I need to go.

The foot in each footsteps builds positive association with the scent. Dogs smell in layers. At first they’re noticing the hot dogs, then the crushed grass, then the human scent. Soon they have learned that whatever is the stronger scent in the scent pad is what they’re following, just by positively associating it with food. Once they get that game, they will track anything that I point them towards.

Your meat drag line is essentially working the dog through food drive, with rewards of hunks of meat, but I’m wondering if part of the reason she’s running around is she’s air scenting the meat and skipping the process. At which that point I would shorten her lead and work the trail with her, build her confidence in you two as a team, and really make sure she understands following the trail gets her the food. I would also up the amount of treats in the track if you switch to hide. I would imagine part of that is from her SAR background - if she was a man tracking/trailing dog or a rubble search dog, they basically rely on air scenting, so have different search patterns than a true tracking dog. They will track for a bit then start air scenting to find their source/where they need to go. I would say there is no harm in backing up and working the trail and really making that connection that the fastest way to the meat is by following the ground trail. There’s also a harness called a botcher harness that will keep her head down, but honestly leash under the torso works just as well.

I hope this helps some. There's probably a ton I forgot to mention or didn't get a chance to expand on, so let me know if there's anything I'm missing.

[TimL_168]

Are you going into the wind when you start? I'm assuming you are. You should be able to once she is good to then go any direction into the wind. I would also advise to lay a trail in a relatively unused area, and the next trail 20 feet from that, and if you're tracking the next day in a totally different area and rest the previous area at least three days.

I would suggest that when she starts casting to stop and hold still, giving her enough line for her to work the area, and only move when it looks like she has the trail again.

I love it when they skip over food. Means they're into the track. Sounds like you're starting her off nicely and just need the fine tuning with her. It also sounds like Aurora is methodical and Endeavor is more of the fast and looser type tracker, which is fine as long as she's accurate. You can tighten her up by guiding her a bit more to the trail, and build speed later by putting more back pressure on her so she pulls into the track.

So, I've been paying a lot more attention to wind, and I'm noticing a good deal of improvement. I backed off of the meat a great deal. I started putting all her daily food on tracks and she's done great at following the food trail. This week, I started with a little bit of meat again along the trail. I've also been using the deer hide tug I made as a drag(wiped it with a piece of venison first). She's following that pretty well, taking corrections off a short lead. Definitely learning!
The BIGGEST thing I've learned is that if she's not warmed up, she goes nuts all over the trail. If I lay the trail and then go play with the flirt pole for five minutes or so, she is MUCH more...focused(?) on the track, not blazing off in any direction.
Trying to order a couple more books that should give me a broader base. Most of the resources out there are for man tracking, but I think a few of them will still be helpful.
Thanks again for the advice!

[NWDS]

I'm a little late to the game. I don't have much experience teaching tracking but I lay a ton of track for our k9 guy and I ask lots of questions since I'm usually watching the dog search around for me.

One thing he told me is to create a really good start point. PSD's track off of dead skin cells that we she'd continously so stay in one spot for a while and let them build up then start laying the track.

When he has issues with the dog getting off of the track he will do lots and lots of short tracks. The dog senses the frustration in the handler and it affects how he works.

One thing I didn't see you post about is the reward at the end of the he track. Is there something highly desirable waiting at the end?

We may be getting another dutchie and will be starting on schutzhund hopefully so I look forward to teaching and learning. Who knows, I may get our open K9 spot this fall which would be awesome

[TimL_168]

.

One thing he told me is to create a really good start point. PSD's track off of dead skin cells that we she'd continously so stay in one spot for a while and let them build up then start laying the track.

When he has issues with the dog getting off of the track he will do lots and lots of short tracks. The dog senses the frustration in the handler and it affects how he works.

One thing I didn't see you post about is the reward at the end of the he track. Is there something highly desirable waiting at the end?

Who knows, I may get our open K9 spot this fall which would be awesome

·For a starting point, I've been circling the hide around a bit, and leaving either venison or her kibble on the edge of the circle at the beginning of a drag.
·When she's on track, I'm giving pretty constant low volume praise. When she breaks, I give a low intensity NO and circle her back a few feet and pick it back up.
·I am working her on multiple short trails, but not every day. Today, for example, we did just two tracks over at the park. each was maybe 60 yards long.
·I was leaving a track of kibble with a lump of meat at the end, but in just a couple days she decided to ignore the track and charge to the source-head up the while time.
I want her to work area searches as well as follow a track. I know she can do the work were training for. I can hide her cup of kibble in a tree in our ¾ acre lot and she's found it in under a minute. I'm really working towards getting her in shape to work this season. I don't do the same lessons every time. Most mornings I'll lay a track with kibble every 5-7 yards and the stainless cup at the end (getting to stuff her face in the cup is a big reward for her). Afternoons, I'll lay either a handful of short tracks in my yard, or rotate out to one of the nearby fields. Trying to build her patience and focus with the kibble tracks, and build drive and add length with the meat tracks. The really hard part is going to be when I start her through thicker brush. I think after she actually comes up on her first deer, she'll get it all put together for good! I imagine that's a pretty substantial mental tool for the dog.
· Good luck with the position!