Facebook page.Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
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Zaire
- Just Whelped
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:03 am
- Tell us about yourself: My wife and I just purchased a Brindle Dutch Shepherd. We have three horses, two goats and a pug. We are very active and health conscious. Our shepherd is named Zaire and she is 10 weeks old.
Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
My wife and I just purchased our first Dutch Shepherd. Zaire is an 11 week old Brindle puppy. Although my wife did much research about Dutch Shepherds and selected a reputable breeder I am afraid we may have made a big mistake. Zaire is very lovable and can be sweet but she is exhibiting food aggression, toy aggression and unfortunately Goat aggression. We are now concerned about her and our goats and pug. We have had two specialized trainers audit Zaire. The second one who trains Protection Dogs and competes knows this breed well. He said while they make good family dogs there are certain realities consider: cannot treat them like a pet or they will lose respect for you, cannot put them in your bed as they may attack you, cannot guarantee they will not attack our goats as they are predators and goats are prey. You must train them constantly and treat them like a partner not a pet, etc. Any advice would be appreciated as we are already in love with Zaire but are now very concerned....
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TimL_168
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1387
- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I am: a father, a carpenter, hunter, runner. I have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, a Shiloh Shepherd. I added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
- Location: central MD
Re: Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
1) Any puppy is going to be extremely impulsive and destructive. Fortunately, as a puppy, you can start them down the right path with the most effectiveness. You'll need to understand your puppy, what it needs and wants. These dogs absolutely need daily guidance. They can react negatively to unfair and heavy handed reprimand, but they need a stern attitude to let them know their place.
2) do not feed your puppy from a dish. Feed your puppy by hand, no matter what you feed her. Make her "work" for her food. Give Zaire her rations a bite at a time as reward for the slightest positive behavior and build on that.
3) I would imagine that what you're labeling as aggression towards your goats is just puppy rambunctiousness. Don't forget: these are herding dogs! They are hardwired to chase and nip. Every dog is going to be different, but it's very likely that you will NEED to give the dog some kind of outlet to exercise her inherent drives.
2) do not feed your puppy from a dish. Feed your puppy by hand, no matter what you feed her. Make her "work" for her food. Give Zaire her rations a bite at a time as reward for the slightest positive behavior and build on that.
3) I would imagine that what you're labeling as aggression towards your goats is just puppy rambunctiousness. Don't forget: these are herding dogs! They are hardwired to chase and nip. Every dog is going to be different, but it's very likely that you will NEED to give the dog some kind of outlet to exercise her inherent drives.
Tim L.
I hope all your dogs are well
I hope all your dogs are well
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Owned-By-Hendrix
- Training Dog
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:40 am
- Tell us about yourself: Dutch Shepherd Owner.
Re: Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
Where did you purchase her? What did you tell the breeder you wanted when you were talking about the pup? Who are the pup's dam and sire? What was the job you had planned for the dog? These questions will help us guide you.
What pet trainers call toy and food aggression is commonly possession. You see this trait a lot in dogs who are picked for protection work. It cannot be trained out; you just redirect it to okay outlets and tempered. It can also be simply a DS pup being a DS pup. They are working dogs. To determine which it is would require an example.
As for what the protection trainer said... Yes, you cannot treat them like pets. They are working dogs. They must be given a job. The sleeping on the bed bit is an old school train of through and comes from dominance theory. Modern day training acknowledges while a very small probability, it ultimately depends on the dog. I have worked dogs who will take you down if they sleep on the bed and later in training you go to correct them. I have also seen dogs do that regardless if they sleep on the bed or the kennel or outside. My dog sleeps with me on the bed but he sure as heck knows attacking me means not a smart move for him. The goat aggression honestly is probably mostly prey drive and the pup not knowing what a goat is. It's probably freaked out and is defensive. These first experiences with a goat may have made the goat a permanent reactive object or it could be worked on through training and forgotten. Hard to tell with a pup. As far as your pug, DS have high prey drives so your pug will probably be seen as prey soon and that too will be a training opportunity.
What I say next I say out of love of the breed and concern for you having the right dog for your family: Zaire may not be a good fit for your family. It depends on how much DS traits will work in your family/life and the amount of training you are willing to commit to. Read through the forum and see other's experiences with DS pups. They are scoundrels and devils on crack. We love them, but they require a lot of work and training. You reap what you put in... around 2-3 years. You have some catching up to do at this point in time if you're looking to keep Zaire. Feel free to answer the questions I posed at the top, as doing so will help us give you some insight into whether or not the breed/dog may be the best fit.
What pet trainers call toy and food aggression is commonly possession. You see this trait a lot in dogs who are picked for protection work. It cannot be trained out; you just redirect it to okay outlets and tempered. It can also be simply a DS pup being a DS pup. They are working dogs. To determine which it is would require an example.
As for what the protection trainer said... Yes, you cannot treat them like pets. They are working dogs. They must be given a job. The sleeping on the bed bit is an old school train of through and comes from dominance theory. Modern day training acknowledges while a very small probability, it ultimately depends on the dog. I have worked dogs who will take you down if they sleep on the bed and later in training you go to correct them. I have also seen dogs do that regardless if they sleep on the bed or the kennel or outside. My dog sleeps with me on the bed but he sure as heck knows attacking me means not a smart move for him. The goat aggression honestly is probably mostly prey drive and the pup not knowing what a goat is. It's probably freaked out and is defensive. These first experiences with a goat may have made the goat a permanent reactive object or it could be worked on through training and forgotten. Hard to tell with a pup. As far as your pug, DS have high prey drives so your pug will probably be seen as prey soon and that too will be a training opportunity.
What I say next I say out of love of the breed and concern for you having the right dog for your family: Zaire may not be a good fit for your family. It depends on how much DS traits will work in your family/life and the amount of training you are willing to commit to. Read through the forum and see other's experiences with DS pups. They are scoundrels and devils on crack. We love them, but they require a lot of work and training. You reap what you put in... around 2-3 years. You have some catching up to do at this point in time if you're looking to keep Zaire. Feel free to answer the questions I posed at the top, as doing so will help us give you some insight into whether or not the breed/dog may be the best fit.
Kay, H, and The SO
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)
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Zaire
- Just Whelped
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:03 am
- Tell us about yourself: My wife and I just purchased a Brindle Dutch Shepherd. We have three horses, two goats and a pug. We are very active and health conscious. Our shepherd is named Zaire and she is 10 weeks old.
Re: Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
We purchased Zaire from Aachen dutch shepherds in Oaklahoma City. Aachen Arko KNPV PH I Met L of European Dutch Shepherd Arko Kikkert, considered one of the top producing stud dogs for the KNPV program in Holland. The Sire of the pups, Arko, is out of the great KNPV European female Djenna. His write up states: Arko is a powerful big dog, dead on serious and committed when working and playful and loving as a puppy with us when being "just a dog!" Stable temperament and disposition, very agile, quick, strong and tough. He would run through fire to "get the bad guy or tennis ball, or his tug or just whatever you care to throw out there to play with him." This guy is all high octane high drive... stable and sound minded dutch shepherd, he is NOT handler aggressive... etc. The Aachen breeder has over 300 videos online of their dogs and pups. Genetic traits.... balance, prey, defense, great nerves, natural obedience and guarding drives. Dame: KNPV European female Djenna. bloodline. I expressed to the breeder I wanted a guard dog for the house, as I didn't want to purchase guns, (even though I have my concealed weapons permit,) a dog to go out with me daily when solo riding my horses for one to two hour trail rides, a dog that would walk with us when we are walking our two Nigerial Dwarfs goats, which are our pets, to walk with us when we take two of the horses for a walk on their lead ropes for a two mile hike, etc. This would be her job for me. After talking with the two certified K9 trainers, separately, they suggested obedience training, advanced obedience training, specific training (working with the goats) and protection training. (I personally don't think I would do the protection training, as I feel this breed has a natural instinct for protection.) This would require a lot of committment and time and money. Zaire came to us from Oaklahoma City via Denver to Scottsdale, AZ. A 7 hour trip in a small kennel. For the first 10 days she had a bad case of diaphria... she must of been miserable... we gave her Safe Guard and ended up taking her to the vets... she now is doing great. The last three days I have been committed to working with her on obedience training three times a day, plus 20 minutes of play time, plus one walk in the morning and another walk in the evening when the sun sets. She now sits, stays, comes, lays down, rolls-over... before I serve her food, she must sit and she does. I am working with her to "leave-it" when she obtains something in her mouth that I don't want her to have. As soon as she drops it.... I reward her. I do reward her for every little thing she does... boy, does this make a difference. I am working on her manners around the goats. She will heel at my side as we wait outside the arena in a calm manner while my husband puts the goats in their goat pen for the evening, as during the morning and afternoon, the goats eat and hang out with the three horses. During the mornings I have Zaire in a 40 x 60 foot fenced off area (next to the goat pen) with a large tree and pet pool and small flower gardens. She will play with her toys, go into the pet pool on her own and roll around the flower garden soil. She barks at the goats, put not as visous as she did at the beginning. This particular breed is bred for "bite." Police and Navy Seals have purchased from this breeder. I am taking one day at-a-time. I am finding working with a DS is very similiar to working with horses. I am working with Zaire as the Alpha... commander in chief... I am the boss. Zaire knows I am her handler and she is showing respect... but, there are times when she will bite and pull at my jeans (which on the breeders video it shows this very act and the K9 trainers both said not to discourage this act.) I DON'T LIKE THIS ACT. However, when I say "Leave-it" most of the time she will... knowing she is going to get a treat. Also, I noticed during these times of aggression, which are not nearly as bad as it was at the beginning... she doesn't know how to express herself, she will bite me on the arm... this is telling me she needs to go out to go to the bathroom. I have to find another way for this bad habit. Howevere, a good trait both K9 trainers noticed was when Zaire greeted them at the front door, she was very excited to meet them... jumping on them and licking their hands. So far I hope this committment will work out... but, if I find this particular puppy will be too aggressive for us, I will consider selling her to the police acadamy so she will have a fitting job for her aggression. Thanks for your input... Kathy
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Owned-By-Hendrix
- Training Dog
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:40 am
- Tell us about yourself: Dutch Shepherd Owner.
Re: Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
Ahhhhh Aachen. So, you can look through some reviews of Aachen - on this forum and on FB groups. I will also PM you.
Arko is actually a very hard dog and requires a very skilled handler. He is very aggressive and dominant. His pups are not for first time handlers. So the dam of Zaire was Djenna? Arko's mother? So it was a mother/son pairing? If so this is a very high octane and possible nervy litter if not handled correctly. Very serious dog.
When you ask for a guard dog, you will get a dog that has possession (the core of what makes a PPD/guard dog a good one), which means they are territorial and possessive over objects and food. This can be worked on and adjusted, but cannot be worked out of the dog. My own dog is highly possessive, and he knows I'm not going to take food out of his mouth, but if anyone wanders up while he is eating, he growls at them and displays aggression. He will even guard his food around me, but knows I won't take it from it, and at a word from me settles back in. When he's in my vehicle, even his breeder won't just walk up to the car (and my dog knows him very well), because H sees the car as his and will protect it. It's genetic. Getting a ball out of his mouth when he doesn't want you to have it is a battle even I don't win. So I work around some of it, we compromise on a lot of it, and there's few I let him have.
You're doing right with the positive training. I will warn you that as she gets older, her drives will kick in more. You'll see spikes starting around 6 months, 8 months, 10 months... then teenage years kick in from 10-18 months. By 18 months she should be just starting to reach maturity, which means you won't be pulling out your hair as much.
It sounds like it was probably nerviness first time with the goats, and exposure is showing her they aren't monsters and not to be afraid. I would keep up the positive association with them, as well as the obedience, and understand that as her drives mature she may attempt to attack them again if they move fast because they will be a prey object. I would focus a lot on exposure and socialization. Exposure to a lot of different things, scents, climbing on things, experience the world in a safe and comfortable environment for her. With people, let her set the pace, and make sure it's all controlled. Don't let strangers run over and start petting her - this is a quick way to get a DS reactive to people if it freaks the pup out and overwhelms them. Controlled interactions and she doesn't necessarily have to greet people - just seeing all types of people and smelling them and being around them can help. If she wants to meet, awesome.
The biting thing is just a DS being a DS. They're land sharks. You're going about it the right way, and I would even add in a bit of redirecting (teaching her if she gets amped up to go and find a toy to play with) will also help when she gets over stimulated. It sounds like it's a mix of her being under exposed and a bit nervy at this stage, along with being a DS puppy. Showing her the world and building confidence will help with a lot of that.
As far as the possibility of her going to the police academy... Most won't take a donated dog from a civilian because they usually fail the tests (reactive, unnecessary aggression, not environmentally sound, does not/cannot bite, untrained in scent work/no talent for it, not the right temperament, too nervy, etc). Every dog going to the police academy is testing for drives. Green dogs are sold without obedience, trained dogs are usually trained in bite, apprehension, and/or narcotics/searches. Most civilians don't have the resources to train a potential police service dog. Most dogs coming out of what I would define as pet homes (as in they have not been in a biting sport or LE/Military home) don't make the cut. I'm telling you this because right now you have a blank piece of paper you get to shape, so if it does not work out, you want to make sure you've put in the best effort to assure her a good home, which starts with exposure and socialization.
Arko is actually a very hard dog and requires a very skilled handler. He is very aggressive and dominant. His pups are not for first time handlers. So the dam of Zaire was Djenna? Arko's mother? So it was a mother/son pairing? If so this is a very high octane and possible nervy litter if not handled correctly. Very serious dog.
When you ask for a guard dog, you will get a dog that has possession (the core of what makes a PPD/guard dog a good one), which means they are territorial and possessive over objects and food. This can be worked on and adjusted, but cannot be worked out of the dog. My own dog is highly possessive, and he knows I'm not going to take food out of his mouth, but if anyone wanders up while he is eating, he growls at them and displays aggression. He will even guard his food around me, but knows I won't take it from it, and at a word from me settles back in. When he's in my vehicle, even his breeder won't just walk up to the car (and my dog knows him very well), because H sees the car as his and will protect it. It's genetic. Getting a ball out of his mouth when he doesn't want you to have it is a battle even I don't win. So I work around some of it, we compromise on a lot of it, and there's few I let him have.
You're doing right with the positive training. I will warn you that as she gets older, her drives will kick in more. You'll see spikes starting around 6 months, 8 months, 10 months... then teenage years kick in from 10-18 months. By 18 months she should be just starting to reach maturity, which means you won't be pulling out your hair as much.
It sounds like it was probably nerviness first time with the goats, and exposure is showing her they aren't monsters and not to be afraid. I would keep up the positive association with them, as well as the obedience, and understand that as her drives mature she may attempt to attack them again if they move fast because they will be a prey object. I would focus a lot on exposure and socialization. Exposure to a lot of different things, scents, climbing on things, experience the world in a safe and comfortable environment for her. With people, let her set the pace, and make sure it's all controlled. Don't let strangers run over and start petting her - this is a quick way to get a DS reactive to people if it freaks the pup out and overwhelms them. Controlled interactions and she doesn't necessarily have to greet people - just seeing all types of people and smelling them and being around them can help. If she wants to meet, awesome.
The biting thing is just a DS being a DS. They're land sharks. You're going about it the right way, and I would even add in a bit of redirecting (teaching her if she gets amped up to go and find a toy to play with) will also help when she gets over stimulated. It sounds like it's a mix of her being under exposed and a bit nervy at this stage, along with being a DS puppy. Showing her the world and building confidence will help with a lot of that.
As far as the possibility of her going to the police academy... Most won't take a donated dog from a civilian because they usually fail the tests (reactive, unnecessary aggression, not environmentally sound, does not/cannot bite, untrained in scent work/no talent for it, not the right temperament, too nervy, etc). Every dog going to the police academy is testing for drives. Green dogs are sold without obedience, trained dogs are usually trained in bite, apprehension, and/or narcotics/searches. Most civilians don't have the resources to train a potential police service dog. Most dogs coming out of what I would define as pet homes (as in they have not been in a biting sport or LE/Military home) don't make the cut. I'm telling you this because right now you have a blank piece of paper you get to shape, so if it does not work out, you want to make sure you've put in the best effort to assure her a good home, which starts with exposure and socialization.
Kay, H, and The SO
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)
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Mark77
- Training Dog
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:19 am
- Tell us about yourself: Own a Mal and a Dutchie.
Re: Need Advice - New to Dutch Shepherds
First, police are civilians- they generally get their dogs from the same places we do. I train one of my dogs with police dogs of our city at the same facility. Military however has their own breeding programs and those people rarely sell their dogs to civilians. If a civilian did get a military dog, then it was either retired or rejected.
As far as your puppy, she'll be fine. She's a puppy and you don't have to be afraid of a puppy despite what some trainer says. Treat her as you would any other puppy but with the addition of obedience training. Bonding right now is probably the most important aspect of interacting with her. You want her to be bonded with you and your family above all else. Don't crate her all the time, keep her with you as often as possible and under command- down stay on her dog bed. Once she has all her vaccines start taking her with you to visit people, go places etc. However at night, at least for now, she sleeps in the crate. As they get older, you can use a dog bed. Though I admit, today I woke up and my female Mal and female Dutchie were both laying at the bottom of my bed so I guess they got cold last night. Usually though they stay on their dog beds without issue.
Just work on obedience. If you want to do personal protection, make sure your trainer has been vetted, has perhaps titled dogs in PSA or Schutzhund- maybe check him out online also. I have an amazing trainer, he is probably one of the best out there but he does things differently than I do. He is very regimented with his dogs of course and is the reason why he has titled dogs in PSA. Me, I'm more relaxed and want a well rounded dog to take anywhere and expect my dogs to be social along with being good with people. However we agree on bite work and where I want to go, so for that, I work my dog on bite training/protection once a week.
Mark77
As far as your puppy, she'll be fine. She's a puppy and you don't have to be afraid of a puppy despite what some trainer says. Treat her as you would any other puppy but with the addition of obedience training. Bonding right now is probably the most important aspect of interacting with her. You want her to be bonded with you and your family above all else. Don't crate her all the time, keep her with you as often as possible and under command- down stay on her dog bed. Once she has all her vaccines start taking her with you to visit people, go places etc. However at night, at least for now, she sleeps in the crate. As they get older, you can use a dog bed. Though I admit, today I woke up and my female Mal and female Dutchie were both laying at the bottom of my bed so I guess they got cold last night. Usually though they stay on their dog beds without issue.
Just work on obedience. If you want to do personal protection, make sure your trainer has been vetted, has perhaps titled dogs in PSA or Schutzhund- maybe check him out online also. I have an amazing trainer, he is probably one of the best out there but he does things differently than I do. He is very regimented with his dogs of course and is the reason why he has titled dogs in PSA. Me, I'm more relaxed and want a well rounded dog to take anywhere and expect my dogs to be social along with being good with people. However we agree on bite work and where I want to go, so for that, I work my dog on bite training/protection once a week.
Mark77