Klein Update! :)

[Kristie E]

offfff topic

on the e-collar: I've never used it on a young dog, (in my case bith dogs were well over 2 years old) and I do not use the low levels... If I use it, I want to use it as a last resource, therefore it has to be so impressive, the dog never even thinks about doing it again. After that first one, (if correctly connected to the command given before the correction came) the command will be followed imidiately. I do NOT want to be using it forever. If you use it well, it only works as a reminder I believe, so first you need to be 120% sure that the command is understood under all circumstances, and the dog can handle this type of pressure.

I don't use it the way you have described. I have seen e fences fail and dogs put to sleep for just being dogs.. (a whole other thread). I use it as an everyday training tool. I find the level where the dog feels something. I then guide or teach the dog what to do when it feels the stim. (Dog already has a basic understanding of the command) We do it a thousand times. In my case I use it mainly for the recall. Then I proof it under low moderate and high distractions. As the distractions rise, I may need to raise the working level stim. I use a dogtra so I have a 127 levels. My father-in-law has a lot of property out in farm country, I take the dogs out there to get in some serious running. I cannot afford to have the dogs decide they are going to chase something onto some farmers property. It is a great way to get your dog shot. I can say with confidence that Gwen's recall is pretty damn near 100% at this point without or without collar and under distraction. I know nothing is fool proof. Neither of my current dogs would do well with the e collar used under high levels. I think the issue with the use of the collar when people do not train their dogs and have no clear understanding of the command(s). Then it becomes a very misused tool and becomes fuel for opponents of e collars.

[Marjolein]

so there's our difference I do NOT use it as a training/teaching tool. I learn my dog the command first, but without any "tool" exept for a long line (=preventing)
Than, I go somewhere where I am sure my dog will make a mistake, like: do recall when another dog/bunny is approaching)
That's where a correction (voice, long line) comes in. This will be repeated. If necessary and the dog is ready for it I might even use a prong, but prefer not to, it's the "shock" that does the work, the unexpected pissed off pack leader thing
The dog get's older, and on a long line, listens 100%. Now I go somewhere again where you are sure she will make a mistake off leash (walk along some fluffy tasty sheep...) and I make her disobey my command in a way, but so that I know it is safe for dog/fluffy sheep. Now I correct my dog heavily, she knew not to disobey. I reinforce this by going all soft on her "ahhh, poor doggy, did the nasty sheep bite you" I will be her hero pack leader/safety, and the nasty sheepy is not so fluffy afterall! Mean electro sheepy
So I do not teach/learn my dog things with it, I correct disobeying the obvious

[Kristie E]

bahhabbahhhabahhabbha those mean flufffy sheep... leave a nasty taste in the mouth do they?

[dutchringdog]

Agree.......... I have used the Ecollar as a reminder for Thalie when she was off leash, mostly hiking and biking. She already had the training for what we were doing, we too never used the ecollar to train a dog. Mostly we used them to get a very correct OUT on bite work. Let the dog make the mistake, after training with out the colarand like Marj said, use it to make sure he gets the point and thats that.

[born2fly79]

Thank you all for all the input!! I haven't been on in a couple days so I just read them all in one lump today. I am, but no means, a trainer so I do appreciate all input you have for me. We have been very happy with Klein's response to the collar. He does not receive harsh corrections (very few corrections at all in fact) and it is fit properly. Right or wrong? I don't know. I only know that for us (and for Klein) it is working at this time. Corrections with a straight collar initially got some response from him (though not a huge response) and over just a 2 week period he pretty much quit responding to them at all. We use a lot of positive training, with treats (his food, but he loves it!) and praise. That has worked with most things, but just did not work with leash training. I should note, too, that his prong collar is on during other training, any time he's on leash, but it has only been used for correction for leash pulling.

As for the trainer with whom we're working, she is very highly respected in this area. You are certainly welcome to critique, however, as even the best welcome critique (or should!). She trained police dogs for about 10 years and is familiar with working breeds. I don't believe she has trained a DS. We have been very happy with her techniques thus far. Many of her techniques are in line with those discussed in "The Art of Raising a Puppy" by The Monks of New Skete. I had read this book prior to beginning our work with her.

I hope this doesn't come across as being defensive! That is certainly not my intent. I know I can receive the most assistance if I clearly share details of what we are currently doing. I am very grateful to have many knowledgeable people on here so willing to help out! If you have tips for other training issues, please do share! We are currently working on his "friendship" with the cat, "come", "stay", door manners.

On Friday, our vet said Klein has a mild infection in his skin. He is on antibiotics for that. I was also wondering if anyone has had something similar. I've never had a dog get a skin infection. His symptoms were excessive flaking (moist, dandruff type flakes) and pink/ purple(ish) skin in all visible areas. The purple tone was more in his ears than anywhere else. It doesn't seem to bother him, aside from possibly a bit of extra itching. We got a hydrocortizone shampoo and conditioner Friday. (I LOVE the feel of his hair from this conditioner!). My aunt is a groomer and recommended these, after the vet's referral. If you have any insight on this, please do share!

Thanks, again!!

[Dutchringgirl]

Poor Klein, I hope the infection goes away, the only skin irritations ive dealt with so far, is the end of last summer, Thalie was super itchy, she has never been itchy before, I gave her a bath with Head and Shoulders and that was that.

In any sport you will find so many different opinions and get so much different advice, amazing isnt it? The best thing is to take what works for you and the animal and be the happiest you can be.

Its good to ask, it shows you have concern for what you are doing with your dog, and you are interested in other ideas and techniques, and willing to learn and see what else is out there. So many times, with horses and dogs, I see people with tunnel vision, not willing to see what others are up to, usually they are the ones who are using the harshest training ( only my opinion). Its always good to see people question.

[Marjolein]

poor Klein, must be itchy! I've not heard of it in DS that I know, but know some GSD that had this. One had it all his love and got injections for it every 3 months, not sure what was in them Hopefully for Klein it's only temporary, could be from plants or something ??

[Kristie E]

Like Lisa, I think that asking questions and getting input from several sources is a great way to go. Not everything works for every dog, people have to try things and see what works best for their situations. Having a closed mind is what gets people in trouble and then they try to make one size fit all, when it very clearly doesn't. I can't train my mare the same way I train my draft horse. He is far too dense and she is far to sensitive. Giving Izar harsh corrections with out clear understanding of what is being asked will cause him to shut down. Being to easy on Gwen, will turn her into a heathen monster.... ..... I don't have to beat her but we don't allow any bs... as in my mom is here so I don't have to let my dad tell me what to do... because she sure would try to get away with it. As they say... "there a lots of ways to skin a cat." :dswink"

[born2fly79]

As for where his infection came from, they aren't sure. The vet did a skin scraping and said there was an abnormal level of bacteria and that it could be a staph infection. He could have been scratched (not sure how) and allowed his naturally occurring bacteria to get inside where it thrives! We have noticed him itching more these past few days. I hope these antibiotics clear it up. Every time I catch a glimpse of the skin in his ears (which he hasn't been scratching), I just feel bad for him. It does seem to have slowed him down a bit, too, in spurts. He still likes his walks, though, and isn't having trouble finding trouble!

We switched his food 3 weeks ago and I've been curious as to whether or not any of this could be from his new food. He was on Wellness Large Breed Puppy and is now on Taste of the Wild (yellow bag, venison and buffalo). He isn't picky about the taste! He'll pretty much eat anything edible!

He has 3 weeks worth of antibiotics, so it may take awhile to notice it getting better. I think he's enjoying Mom's soft heart while he's not up to par!

[Marjolein]

We switched his food 3 weeks ago and I've been curious as to whether or not any of this could be from his new food.

You did tell your vet you switched food? This could very well be a cause for itchy skin...

[born2fly79]

Yes, I told him about switching his food. I'm going to call and ask him a few more questions, though. His bacteria level was very high so there's definitely something else going on, but I just can't get it out of my head that this happened a couple weeks after switching food. Could be a mental block thing for me. Who knows?!

[Sugars Mom]

I tried grain free food for Sugar as I'd read that their diet can cause skin problems and Sugar would chew on her feet and legs when we got her. I ended up with the First Mate grain free puppy food by accident when the other brand I was using was out at the pet food shop, and immediately noticed a big improvement over the other one I was using. I know I just had a scary incident with finding a piece of metal in the dog food bag, but so far have been impressed with how the company is dealing with it and how the food has been with Sugar that I am still feeding her that brand. Not only did it stop her from chewing her fur, her fur got super soft and smelled nice. She is fed alot less and has nice small poops and poops less then she did on the other food. Every dog is different and will react differently to food, but this one sure works well for Sugar.

http://www.firstmate.com/dog_food.aspx

[Kristie E]

I wish Gwen would poop less... be less hungry... I think she lives to eat!

[Christie M]

Yes, I told him about switching his food. I'm going to call and ask him a few more questions, though. His bacteria level was very high so there's definitely something else going on, but I just can't get it out of my head that this happened a couple weeks after switching food. Could be a mental block thing for me. Who knows?!

The thing is, if the food isn't agreeing with her, then it could have caused an initial reaction which left the door open for the bacteria to take over. A bacterial infection is rarely the "problem" in an of itself. It is usually a result of something more systemic. So it could be the food. it could also be that the weather has changed greatly and there could be an environmental component...it could be a scratch...it could be anything.

I would first start with the medications and not change any variables. If things clear up, see if they stay that way. If they don't then start them over and change back to the old food (it was working before) and see what happens. If he stays cleared up that time, then you have your answer. If not, then it's something else and the systematic elimination begins. Watch for early signs of onset so it isn't nearly as uncomfortable and clears up quickly.

Good luck and honestly - if things continue, don't hesitate to consult a dermatologist to get to the bottom of things as fast as possible.

[born2fly79]

Thanks, Christie! Today I got oral steroids and a different shampoo from the vet. Klein takes pills like a champ so at least we've got that going for us! It doesn't seem to be bothering him too much, other than some itching, and that's not constant. I just notice he scratches more than usual. Thank you for the explanation about the food possible opening a door for infection. I initially wanted to switch his food back right away then rethought that based on the "don't switch too many variables" thought process. Hopefully the antibiotics and steroids will clear this up. He's still a playful, energetic pup!

I was so excited at the vet when he did "down - all the way" (on his side flat and relaxed for exam) so well!! I had one hand on the side of his face lightly, but he just let us look him over so well! I was a pretty proud mommy!

[Christie M]

I was so excited at the vet when he did "down - all the way" (on his side flat and relaxed for exam) so well!! I had one hand on the side of his face lightly, but he just let us look him over so well! I was a pretty proud mommy!

That's AWESOME. I taught my girl, Willow, to "Lateral" which sounds like the same thing. I used to work/live at a vet clinic and got services REALLY cheap. So I x-rayed my dogs annually and I thought it would be very useful for abdominal and chest shots - as well as puppy count x-rays. It always cracked me and everyone up!