Bella and Stella, mini monsters.

[minorwolf]

So these are my little monsters. Bella and Stella are 4 months old, thought they were GSD/mastiff mix (maybe with some coyote, because they have some very odd behaviors, and THOSE EARS) but now I just found out about Dutchies, now I am second guessing everything! They are weighing it at just over 16 kg each and around 20 inches tall at the shoulder. We all live on a farm in BC along with my cat, Major Maxwell. He's in charge, obvs.

We are having some pretty bad sibling rivalry/fearful/agression issues here for the past month and I am trying to figure out their breed to hopefully get more insight and fine-tune their ongoing training programs. I really don't want to have to re-home one of them but their adult teeth are coming in and they are STRONG! The longer it goes on the more dangerous it is for all three of us.

Anyways let me know if you can help me solve the mystery Bella is the lighter coat, Stella the darker.

about 3 months old here..

More recent:

[Dutchringgirl]

I would find a good trainer, and I mean a really good trainer who knows this breed, even if its far. Not a pet store trainer, or some basic obedience trainer who comes to your house, but one who does protection or works with working breeds.

[Tim91118]

They look like a couple of little trouble makers. They’ll need some house rules for sure.

[minorwolf]

I would find a good trainer, and I mean a really good trainer who knows this breed, even if its far. Not a pet store trainer, or some basic obedience trainer who comes to your house, but one who does protection or works with working breeds.

The last trainers I spoke to (last week) actually said that they don't have the experience to work with them, which I appreciated a lot because I think the wrong trainer is almost worse than no trainer at all. They suggested a veterinary behaviorist but I haven't followed up yet.

There's a trainer nearby that specializes in working dogs, I'm going to give them both a call today.

Both girls are doing really well with basic obedience and vocabulary with just me working on my own – but I really need some help with the infighting and aggression issues before they get any bigger.

[Steve Gossmeyer]

Honestly veterinary behaviorist is a bullshit term and all they will do is put the dogs on prozac which is very bad for them! And if they are fighting like this now no training will make it to where you will be able to trust them together... your best bet is finding a home for one of them and hiring a qualified trainer for the other... any dog trainer that says the arent qualified to work with this kind of dog shouldn't be training dogs

[minorwolf]

Thanks everybody! So this thread kinda went down the training rabbithole instead of breed ID, which is much appreciated anyways! but am still also curious if you all think these little ladies could be Dutchies? The more I read about em the more I think it's an accurate match, but I think I would like to do a DNA test also.

Here is their sister Daisy, she is the runt from the same litter and lives with a friend:

Honestly veterinary behaviorist is a bullshit term and all they will do is put the dogs on prozac which is very bad for them! And if they are fighting like this now no training will make it to where you will be able to trust them together... your best bet is finding a home for one of them and hiring a qualified trainer for the other... any dog trainer that says the arent qualified to work with this kind of dog shouldn't be training dogs

I am not 100% opposed to medication in low doses to take the edge off, for humans or animals if the need is legitimate. I am not convinced that these dogs need it, however.

I think they were referring more to the complications of training the two of them to live together, which is still Plan A...although i'm already putting feelers out and steeling myself emotionally for Plan B (re-homing the one I think will rebound the easiest in a new family).

Following up with the working k-9 trainer tomorrow to schedule a consult... I am hoping to spend some time alongside a professional in individual private training before making any decisions...

[Dutchringgirl]

Breed really does not matter if the two of them are ripping each other and everyone around them apart. Bonded siblings are not good no matter what breed. Personally, finding a trainer and rehoming one of them should be on the top of the list instead of wasting money on a dna test and drugs, To only find out what we are saying and more time has gone by and the situation is worse..

[Steve Gossmeyer]

Breed really does not matter if the two of them are ripping each other and everyone around them apart. Bonded siblings are not good no matter what breed. Personally, finding a trainer and rehoming one of them should be on the top of the list instead of wasting money on a dna test and drugs, To only find out what we are saying and more time has gone by and the situation is worse..

This 100%!!! The do appear to be dutchie mixes... and research what happens to a dog during withdrawals of the meds and you'll never put them on it! Its human medication for human emotional issues... dogs are not human and do not have human emotional issues! Seriously train one and rehome the other its what's best for the dogs! One is going to be challenging enough for you!

[centrop67]

Along the lines of the original question, Bella and Stella do look similar to Dutch Shepherds.

However, and it may be due to the age, there is something in looking from a conformation perspective that says maybe not. The head shape in one picture looks incorrect - forehead shape and the stop (slope from forehead to nose). The tail seems too short and not quite the right shape. The ears seem way too big as well, but again the age of the dogs may be the cause.

Please understand that visual breed identification is not easy - <25% accuracy in professionals according to one study.

Finally, Steve and Lisa do not give their respective advice lightly. They are very experienced dog handlers, and they care about the well being of dogs in general - as I am sure you do.

[minorwolf]

Thanks everyone for your input I really do appreciate the advice and am keeping it in mind. I'm going to see how things go over the next month or so and if there's no improvement then I will re-home one of them. Have already connected with a working dog trainer as well.

[centrop67]

That's great news.

[minorwolf]

Hey all, just thought I'd update here that I am indeed re-homing Stella. More info here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6477