Dutch Shepherd Forum

wahinelf wrote:I'm vegan and I work at a vet - so thats a double no on feeding raw meat...

You're dog's not a vegan, it's a carnivore And any good vet knows a dog's stomach juices can deal with a lot more bacteria than ours

I do not feed raw either tho, do not have the fridge for it, only once a week they get raw meet/chicken. Normally they get kibble (CAVOM, dutch brand).

RPM here no kibble, dogs are carnivores.

Everyone that has a dog and thinks it's a omnivore should read this. You will see the harm a omnivore diet can cause in your dog.
http://thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html

Not sure why I didn't see this thread before. My name is Stephanie and I too am a dog food nerd. I love reading labels and researching new brands even though I don't feed kibble. I groom and train in a dog food boutique and actually get paid in my off time to hangout on the sales floor and read labels.

I feed Prey Model Raw with a fish oil supplement. I've done Acana/Orijen for a few months to put carb weight on until I was able to get his stress level down and get real muscle developed. It's a great food and probably the #1 kibble in my book. I'm not too happy with their production problems and price increases lately though.

I feed raw because I feel it's the best option and investment for my dog and my lifestyle and I have the most control over the diet. I occasionally do Bravo Chubs to stuff in a kong or other toy. They have grass fed, free range meats that I get at wholesale. I can't pay that low of price for Bison, Lamb, or some of their other flavors so I settle for ground sometimes to add something extra to Odin's diet.

I understand that raw isn't for everyone for various reasons and kibble has come a long way from corn based formulas of the past. There are so many options out there for dogs to try.

Lots of good info. in the Articles on this site.
http://thewholedog.org/id9.html#nutrition

TOTW Pacific Salmon. I live in a pretty out of the way area and many foods like Orijen aren't sold here. Tikka is very sensitive to any food, even treats, with chicken meal-don't know if it is the processing or additives,because plain chicken meat doesn't seem to bother her.

Sue, thank you for posting that link to dry food ratings. it matched up with my sense of the world, but also it usefully listed their methodology.
I was happy to see that my favorite normal kibble - grain-free Merrick - garnered the 2 highest places in their rankings. whether choosing canned [wet] or dry food, I always go for the protein source that I know will be the most natural and thus the most nutritious. that almost invariably means BISON [ so...Merrick grain-free Bison ] since bison is always grass-fed-to-finish and thus contains the essential oils and enzymes that are absent in normal commercial meats - which not only lack the positive attributes of traditional, natural meat but are also loaded with huge amounts of the most harmful fats [ though the fat problem is minimal with fowl and fish ]. I stay clear of most fish - especially salmon because there is no way that these inexpensive dry or canned dog foods have wild salmon in them. farmed salmon lacks the essential oils that are the reason one would want salmon and further has lots of toxins not found in the wild fish.

further in merrick's benefit [ not part of the rating system posted above ] is the fact the merrick is uniquely vertically integrated, so they are processing their meats in the facilities where those meats are then put into canned or dry foods - and not simply buying product from one or more sources where they do not have control of quality of input or process. in addition, the reports of vet school journals and WDJ that I have read applaud this fact AND indicate that merrick buys its ingredients and runs its processing facilities by the best human-quality standards.
so I rely heavily on merrick canned foods [ 1 - organ meat ''working dog stew'' 2 - ''wild buffalo'' 3 - smothered comfort'' chicken breast on the bone ]. to the limited extent I use kibble, merrick grain-free bison or the wilderness blend are also my ONLY choices. tend to use it for treats for training and on walk and as snacks like a small breakfast as soon as dog is awake in morn b4 going out 1st time.

regardless of quality, I do not believe any all-kibble diet will serve a dog well. if using kibble as primary food source. I would, at least, want to supplement it with an occasional can of merrick's working dog stew organ meats and even better add ''platinum performance CJ'' to that to insure the dog is getting its full complement of all desirable enzymes, vitamins, and minerals. one can also add a can of water-packed sardines [ on sale $1.00/can ] several times a week., so maybe each day, the dog would get either a merrick can or sardines, to which either could be added supplements like Pl Perf and VIT c

the very best dry food is not a kibble but is air-dried venison muscle and organ meats and green mussels [ and lots of other fantastic ingredients] from new Zealand. it is what I use when traveling and go all-dry for convenience. it is exceptional quality and dogs love it like they love good meat, BUT it is also exceptionally expensive. but if you want to feed dry and can afford this, then it is the clear choice.

I fit the label dog food nerd as well. Lol currently feed Nutri Source. Did part raw part kibble for awhile then life happened and I got lazy again. Was having a hard time crossing from not chopping it all up. Anyone else had issues making the transition to letting them have bone not chopped up for the First time? Don't want to hurt any of my critters. Have considered buying a grinder that will grind bones so once we move and life gets back under control can go 100% raw. Any help and reassurance on the bone eating will help. Three out of the four finish their kibble in seconds. Funny enough it's Marko the DS is the slower eater.

Marko_1 wrote:I fit the label dog food nerd as well. Lol currently feed Nutri Source. Did part raw part kibble for awhile then life happened and I got lazy again. Was having a hard time crossing from not chopping it all up. Anyone else had issues making the transition to letting them have bone not chopped up for the First time? Don't want to hurt any of my critters. Have considered buying a grinder that will grind bones so once we move and life gets back under control can go 100% raw. Any help and reassurance on the bone eating will help. Three out of the four finish their kibble in seconds. Funny enough it's Marko the DS is the slower eater.

I've never chopped/ground/deboned/anything. Odin went from kibble at the foster home straight to eating bone in chicken halves here with no problem. We slowly transitioned to adding other meats and organs. If you have fast eaters, bigger pieces will slow them down more, and feeding frozen might be your best option. It's very hard to gobble down 2lbs of frozen bones and meat in a short amount of time. It takes a lot of tearing and work.

Another thing to note is if you're hovering, or the dogs are eating together, they could be getting anxious and eating fast out of fear of loosing their food. Separate feeding areas, even inside crates, bathrooms, kennels, etc, will let the dog eat in peace and help slow them down.

The dogs all eat in their crates an no hovering basically start with one end "sit, wait" give bowl, next and when done with the fourth dog go back and pick up bowls.

Will try giving them partially frozen chicken leg quarters when I start again and see how they do.

We feed mostly raw. Also so Fromm kibble, who apparently has yet to sell out to the big dog food companies. That's a big selling point for me.

Don Henry wrote:Everyone that has a dog and thinks it's a omnivore should read this. You will see the harm a omnivore diet can cause in your dog.
http://thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html

To play Devil's advocate, the most recent study referenced in that artical is from 2003. Ten years ago is considered scientifically out of date. I posted this in another thread, but read this artical published this yer in Nature - a peer reviewed scientific publication.
https://www.facebook.com/VarsityPets?fref=ts

Dogs have a genetic mutation that wolves do not have that allows them to digest and utilize carbohydrates. Therefore, an omnivore diet is not "harmful" to them, and they can use carbs as a source of energy in addition to protein and fat. So often we get hung up in absolutes that we miss the obvious. Dogs successfully thrived and became a part of our lives by surviving on the crap humans discarded. Its only recently that we have tried to feed them perfectly. Probably, they have perfectly adapted to what they were given to digest over the thousands of years of domestication.

Christie M wrote:We feed mostly raw. Also so Fromm kibble, who apparently has yet to sell out to the big dog food companies. That's a big selling point for me.

I liked Fromm, until they got into Pet Supplies Plus, and really screwed over the boutique owners and went against their constant promise of no big box stores. The retail prices there are less than we pay wholesale because of high volume, yet they won't admit to the reasons for going into PSP. Fromm blamed it on the distributors pressuring them, and the distributor said Fromm wanted it.

PSP seems to be the less evil of the Petsomethings, so if Fromm can handle the additional demand and lower price points, then it may very well remain a good choice. I've just seem too many companies, regardless of whether they sold out to a bigger dog food company, start to cut corners when they went into the big box stores. From a business perspective it makes the most sense, but they shouldn't have said they were staying in specialty stores and continue to list it on the website. I'm also not sure of the volume demand creating issues as far as quality.

I do not have my DS as of yet, but I feed my EBs a RAW diet. I feed ground chicken with garlic along with beef kidney or beef heart. I also give them venison and goat when I can get them at a good price. My DS will also be on a RAW diet when I get her.

We are all raw here... It sounds intimidating, but it really is easy.
If for some reason I had to switch, I would feed Orijen or Acana.

so, describe, if you do not mind, what you do that makes raw easy. if i could make it what i consider relatively safe and easy, i would probably make that a regular chunk of the menu.

John-
I am not sure how much information you have on raw...so I will start with the basics.
The formula for feeding raw has 2 basic premises that are accepted by both schools of thought (I'll address the 2 groups later):
Food: 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ.
Portion size: 2-3% of ideal adult body weight.

So let's unpack these 2 basics:
#1. Percentages: as far as the percentages go (80,10,10), raw feeders have a mantra: "balance over time." This means that not every meal has to consist of 80,10,10. As long as your dogs are getting the correct percentage balanced out over the course of a week or so, you're fine. If you try to make sure every meal has the exact ratio, you will drive yourself crazy...unless, of course, you have the time...which I do not. (And even if I did, that's a little too OCD even for my personality....LOL.)
#2. Portion size: you want to start off with 2-3% of ideal adult weight. Keep in mind that this can be more or less depending on activity level, age, medical factors, etc. This is just a starting point and can be adjusted if weight gain or weight loss is needed.
For instance: Tyson is currently 9 months old and about 35 lbs, but when we got him, (and since he is a mix and we have no hard and fast idea of how big he will get), I based his feeding off of an estimated adult weight of 45lbs. Using 3% of 45lbs gives me 1.35 lbs (or 21.6 oz) per day. I feed all 3 of my dogs 2x per day.
Tyson gets 2 meals, each being 8 oz. He typically gets the remainder as rewards while training (using boiled meat, freeze dried meat, cheese, etc) or as a treat "just because" (he gets dried esophagus, fresh chicken feet, pigs feet, meaty soup bones.....). As of now, this is working for him...not too skinny, but sleek and trim.
Baby Ruth (mini-schnauzer) gets 2 oz, 2x per day.
Snickers (min-pin) gets 1 oz, 2x per day.
Though I don't do much daily training with my other two, they do get the same "just because" treats...after all, fair is fair, right?!

So...keeping all of that in mind, here is how I make it easy:
When I purchase their food, I make sure that I will have time either that day or the day after to spend some time cutting, weighing, and bagging. *side note...this is much easier with larger dogs rather than smaller because it is easier to eyeball 8+ oz at a time rather than 1 & 2 oz at a time. In fact, many raw feeders with larger dogs don't weigh at all. Anyway, I portion all the meals out into ziploc baggies and put them in the freezer. I will take 2-3 days worth of food out of the freezer at a time and stick it in the fridge so it can thaw. At meal-time you just unzip and dump. Easy-peazy, lemon squeezy!!! I always let the meat sit out (either in their bowls or in the baggies) for a couple hours to let it get to room temp before I give it to them.
There are suppliers who sell pre-made raw. They get all the ratios, grind it up, and freeze it and then all you have to do is slap the right amount in your dog's bowl. While this is convenient, it really isn't cost-effective for larger dogs and has negative effects on the health of their teeth because it is akin to feeding canned wet food...no scrubbing of the tooth surface involved. That being said, I do buy pre-made from a specific supplier to have on hand for those "just in case" times.

There are 2 schools of thought on raw:
1. Prey style and prey style only. This means no veggies or fruits. EVER. And never feed ground meals. They are pretty strict and are very passionate about prey-model.
2. Your basic raw group. This group believes that raw is the way to go, but everyone and every dog is different so there's not a lot of judgement (unless, of course you feed some dreadful kibble like 'Ol Roy. ). Some feed raw only, some are partial to prey-model, some make a veggie glop, some feed a mixture of high quality kibble & raw....

To each their own...you have to do what you feel is best for your dog.

I am in the second group (obviously, since I keep pre-made raw on hand ). Do my dogs NEED fruits and veggies to survive and be healthy? Probably not, but they sure do like them and most won't hurt them (although some are toxic, like grapes and onions).

The key to raw is this: know thy dog, and don't over-think it.

I hope this helps.

Oh, and ps....I use that same air-dried food from New Zealand as training rewards and/or as a meal Either in a pinch or while camping due to limited fridge space.

LyonsFamily wrote: Odin went from kibble at the foster home straight to eating bone in chicken halves here with no problem. We slowly transitioned to adding other meats and organs

Stephanie -
Ditto when I started my dogs on raw. I do have to do some chopping due to my little guys' sizes, and obviously when I have to cut up a whole chicken or other meat source, but i only chop/cut to get portion sizes correct.

Call me crazy, but there is just something cool about watching your dog crunch through a bone, or gnaw on a chunk of meat and seem to actually enjoy their meal.

My husband calls me "The Raw Evangelist."

I feed all my animals Blue Buffalo. Was curious about getting the ferrets started on raw but decided against it for now. I may try whenever I move out, because I don't think my folks would be crazy about the idea. Haha.