Dutch Shepherd Forum

alspyce wrote:

Marjolein wrote:

alspyce wrote:So now I need to ask about the brown (Liver) DS that I found a photo of on FB????

how about posting that photo...that could help...

Had to hijack these, but here you are. I know it's a mix, just hoping we don't see too many of them slipping into the gene pool.

Liver DS pup.jpg

Liver DS.jpg

Indeed no blue, curious about the bloodline now...

I found the pics on facebook and the owner. I asked him the bloodlines and he said it was a solid black sire and brindle dam. I can probably find out the specific dogs since I know the breeder. I'll see what he has to say. Its pretty interesting!

Yes please Christie.

yeah, that IS interesting
Looks very much like the brown-isch color you get sometimes Selena (Balou etc.) But I think I can see a brindle pretty good on this one, unlike on Balou...?

Yes,balou and in lesser extend Rocko are brownish red with black, but not like this.

Have had convo's with Judith ( v Neerland) about the reddish of Balou.
Maybe something that has to do with the black & brindle and maybe blue recesive(?) so the bloodline is very intresting.

Pic of balou where you can see the reddish look

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

I started looking for Liver/Brown/Chocolate info pertaining to the DS because my own dog has a kind of faded looking black. It doesn't show up in pictures, but her black is not quite as rich, or dark as true black. Still trying to decide if this is her true color---or too much sun! May have to wait until winter coat comes in.
Some GSD's also have a type of coloring where you really only notice the black is not true if they are standing right next to a dog of correct color. This tho, is usually more visible when they are pups, and they appear more normal color as they get older.

Could be blue carrier, i notice in pups when young they have a faint blue shine on them but arent blue themselves...with 2 i've noticed as pups gave blue pups

But if you know the bloodlines it should be easy to dertermine.

Christie M wrote:I found the pics on facebook and the owner. I asked him the bloodlines and he said it was a solid black sire and brindle dam. I can probably find out the specific dogs since I know the breeder. I'll see what he has to say. Its pretty interesting!

The pics show a brown brindle, with brown nose leather and all. Both parents must carry recessive brown in order for the pup to be brown. The black sire, for example, could have been part DS and Chocolate lab (just making this up, but why not?) The brindle dam part Pitbul and DS (Pit's have brown as well as brindle)
So in the best case scenario, the pup is maybe 50% DS at best, the other 50% from one or two beeds that carry brown, which DS's and KNPV DS's do not.

Marjolein wrote:Looks very much like the brown-isch color you get sometimes Selena (Balou etc.) But I think I can see a brindle pretty good on this one, unlike on Balou...?

I disagree Marjolein. Selena has had 'bad black' where the black dog appears to look brownish, much like a sun faded black horse. But the eyes are not dillute on those dogs, neither is the nose leather brown.

I have one dog, with a shiny black coat, who had suffered some bad nutrition and lack of grooming at some point in time, while not in my care. He looked, without a doubt, brown at that time. It took some decent food and coat maintenance to revert back to his glossy black. Of course, eyes and nose stayed regular color during all this. The brown you see in some dogs (present company excluded, no doubt) is not always genetic. In the case of the liver "DS", it probably is though.

So Judith, I may be correct in assuming that Lyric may in fact, just be sunburned? As I was saying---wait until the winter coat comes in.

I thought tho, that I was reading something from your website saying that Liver use to be allowed in the DS back in the 30's? So what if a dog were quite heavily inbred on some of those very old lines?

alspyce wrote:So Judith, I may be correct in assuming that Lyric may in fact, just be sunburned? As I was saying---wait until the winter coat comes in.

I don't know, but like I said. I had one dog who appeared brownish at some point in time (unfortunately, no pics to prove it) but who is very much black based when under good care. It is not always related to care, but whoever said that some GSD's can sport a browner looking coat on the parts that are supposed to be black, is right. It happens, for reasons not always clear, and many dogs actually outgrow it.

I thought tho, that I was reading something from your website saying that Liver use to be allowed in the DS back in the 30's? So what if a dog were quite heavily inbred on some of those very old lines?

No, liver has never been accepted. "Chestnut" has, but only in the long hair. It was before color pictures, but one theory is that those were actually red fawn specimen, much like a dark version of the Belgian Tervuren cousin. No reports of brown noses or paperbag yellow eyes, (which goes with bb brown) just 'chestnut' coats, before they banned that. If there had been a recessive for "bb brown" lurking in the breed, I am convinced that it would not take 100 plus years and one giant ocean for it to surface. For me, there is no other explanation than some chocolate in the woodpile, and with DS's or KNPV DS's not sporting that, my money is on a different breed all together to have added that.

A link to a dark sable Tervuren:
http://www.dognews.com/pedigreegallery/ ... rvuren.htm

Judith, from your site in the section on history, changing standards, have I misinterpreted this??

In 1928 some white was permitted again, and in 1934, yellow, red, brown, and liver were re-introduced as permitted colors for the shorthair, with yellow and reddish brown, as well as ashen re-introduced for the rough air. The longhair had no color changes. It was too late however. The breed base was small and a lot of good dogs had already been excluded due to the several color and structure changes. The clock could not be turned back again. In 1960 the colors were restricted back to the way things were in 1914. Only this time the auburn longhair disappeared.

Not trying to be persnickety---just trying to understand.

vneerland wrote: I disagree Marjolein. Selena has had 'bad black' where the black dog appears to look brownish, much like a sun faded black horse. But the eyes are not dillute on those dogs, neither is the nose leather brown.

I have one dog, with a shiny black coat, who had suffered some bad nutrition and lack of grooming at some point in time, while not in my care. He looked, without a doubt, brown at that time. It took some decent food and coat maintenance to revert back to his glossy black. Of course, eyes and nose stayed regular color during all this. The brown you see in some dogs (present company excluded, no doubt) is not always genetic. In the case of the liver "DS", it probably is though.

You are right on nose colour...did not notice.

On the brown, I used to train at a Rottweiler club, and it is true that black can turn to brown from some food. I forget what they blamed for it, but it was something that is in a lot of dogfood. Change the food, dog goes back to intense black, and a deeper "Brand" (the brown marking on Rottweilers)

alspyce wrote:Judith, from your site in the section on history, changing standards, have I misinterpreted this??
In 1928 some white was permitted again, and in 1934, yellow, red, brown, and liver were re-introduced as permitted colors for the shorthair, with yellow and reddish brown, as well as ashen re-introduced for the rough air. The longhair had no color changes. It was too late however. The breed base was small and a lot of good dogs had already been excluded due to the several color and structure changes. The clock could not be turned back again. In 1960 the colors were restricted back to the way things were in 1914. Only this time the auburn longhair disappeared.
Not trying to be persnickety---just trying to understand.

That's cool, that you found that. I need to re-read the original before translation and see what it says.
Stay tuned. (since I had totally and obviously remembered the auburn, but not liver)