Dutch Shepherd Forum

Selena wrote:More chance with harley or your new addition

I do think it would be quite funny to show up with one one day, because they carry themselves with such attitude and confidence. I highly doubt that is seen in the show ring. It would most certainly make for an amusing day for me. If there is one close by in our area one weekend we are home, I'm very tempted to do just that.

Christie M wrote: Personally, I will never hold AKC responsible for the deterioration of any breed. Breed clubs create standards, and judges judge based on that standard. But in reality, I think this will just make things more clear. Some people will breed for the show ring, some people will breed for work, but in the end...anyone participating will atleast be breeding for something. And those things will be tangible.

Agree with that, in the end, it is always the breeder that makes the descisions...

Schlussdibusti wrote:May be a dog show should be redefined and judged by the purpose a dog is breed for, i.e. how well is a Husky pulling a sled, how well a shepherd can herd, protect, search, how well a hound can hunt, how well a Shitzu looks on a couch (sorry not picking on the breed - couldn't resist), how well a Dackel can dig holes to get the badger, etc..

I know, it's not possible but it would make more sense wouldn't it.

This already excists in FCI, for working breeds there is a "working class" in each show, in this class only dogs with a working certificate can enter. So these dogs will be judged in a group of working dogs, where looks (often) were not priority.
The DS however, is not recognized as a working breed, mainly because there would be more rules for breeding, which would cause the breed to go extinct (rough and longhaired for sure).

I just hope the AKC breeders will make the right descisions, but hey, there are tons of breeders without AKC giving the breed a bad name too As for money, yes that would not help the breed. Luckily in Europe, the DS remains pretty rare, and if you want to make money, you better follow the "trends" white shep, choco lab, German shep etc.

This already excists in FCI, for working breeds there is a "working class" in each show, in this class only dogs with a working certificate can enter. So these dogs will be judged in a group of working dogs, where looks (often) were not priority.

Very interesting. I did not know. What kind of "working certificate" are those? Schutzhund, IPO, FH?

BTW the FCI World Championship http://fci2012.hu/ang/index.php in September has ONE Dutch Shepherd participating with the Romanian Team (BRIGIT DES CROCS DE L'OLYMPE) http://fci2012.hu/doc/egyeni_lista.pdf

(The German Team has all Malinois and one Boxer, not one GSD The Dutch team has mostly GSD.)

Please excuse my ignorance, but is the kennel 'Crocs de'Olympe' considered show or working line?

Schlussdibusti wrote: Very interesting. I did not know. What kind of "working certificate" are those? Schutzhund, IPO, FH?

Depends on the breed, could be IPO FH for shepherd breeds, but also KNJV (hunting) for the hunting breeds. Not sure what else is there, but any FCI working test. Right now there is a group of DS owners doing the official FCI sheep herding test, this is also good for "working class" entrance.

Croc d'olympe is working dog kennel, with (sometimes creative...) FCI papers, so you see, you can still create great working dogs. It is all up to the breeder, and, what helps, in France the studbook is not closed (yet...) so they have openly mixed in KNPV mix DS's al lot

Hi All: Couldn't let this pass. NO AKC! Here's why---I went back and forth w/ AKC on a GSD's registry. We mailed piles of paperwork back and forth. After TWICE the idiots returned paperwork and asked for something that was already in the packet mailed to them, trust me, I'm no fan. Been a 25 year member of an all breed club (Agathon), and we do a couple shows and matches per year. I enjoy it, and used to show my GSDs some. Registered my Dutches w/ UKC, and showed a good bit. Kimba was their first champion of the breed, and then first Grand. Yes, I have the paperwork to prove it. So, am I a jerk who will help ruin the breed with senseless breeding? No. It was cool, but the reason was self defense from some real idiots who tried ever so hard to discredit the incredible WORK done by my Dutches, and tried to say they were vicious. (Oh, yeah, and women shouldn't be Cops anyway.Let alone a bitch in K-9!) So, a bet for 25 cents was made with one of these twits that said the first time in front of a judge, Kimba would kill the judge, or at least rip them apart. I brought back the ribbons and rosettes, also had her temperament tested, cgc, etc and presented results. It proved to be a very effective "shutta yo mouf". I still carry that quarter on my key chain today. She got two Top Dog plaques in K-9 training classes, so we got to play in both worlds. Yay on FCI, but I will cry when AKC gets their meat hooks into our breed. There have already been puppy miller attempts to cash in on the breed. Who pays? Usually the dog when pet owners-to-be find out they aren't at all like a lab.

I guess it was inevitable, but I think it's very sad...

If you want to play in the AKC games and trials, just register as a mixed breed. (Well, OK, this is only for neutered dogs...)

I think the judges have an incredible effect on the breeds; the breeders breed for what the judges reward.

I figured it was only a matter of time. I am very worried that Dutch Shepherds will go the way of the American lines German Shepherds as their popularity increases, but there's not much that can be done to prevent people from breeding just for looks

FSS are accepting the dogs who have FCI reg. papers, so should not have any effect on the working lines. The folks with KNPV lines can continue on as before, and those dogs will not be accepted into AKC, nor will they be able to compete in the conformation classes.

If the breed is "ruined", it will be the by breeders, no matter what the registering organization happens to be, and even by those who don't have a registry. Every breeder who truly cares, should be looking at all aspects of what the breed is suppose to be. That includes correct conformation, stable temperament, health/genetic issues, etc. Never a good thing to breed for only 1 trait, while ignoring the other aspects of a breed. I agree that conformation should also not be the only trait considered when breeding a animal, but it should not be ignored either. It's up to the people who decide to put those pups on the ground to make the breed or break it, no matter what side of the fence you're looking from.

It's all choice and people chose to do what they want. Personally this is good and bad for the breed as some people can't handle the energy of the dog and it ends up in a shelter or farm jailed for doing nothing. As the breed gains popularity you find that this increases unfortunately. I know a lot of people take jabs at people breeding dogs and there is a lot of people in the field that want to make a quick dollar, yet there is some great breeders. It's all status and people would rather see a dog get bred with ranking than the underdog. Does that make the dog better than the underdog.. does having a PHD make that person better than you?

It's nature to be competitive and that's what the AKC is about. In the end we all perpetuate to the breed yet we all hope it's more good than wrong. I just hope people that obtain a DS do some grunt work because it takes a lot to make them happy and satisfied. Hopefully they're wise enough to understand all the ins and outs of what the dog really is as a whole and not by how awesome they look and cool things they do on youtube.

They can already be UKC registered so what's the point of the AKC?

I was told that my UKC DS is a mix by this new club so I can not register her with the AKC. On the east coast most obedience is AKC. Yes I can enter her as a mix but she is not despite what this new club states. She has her UCDX, ASCA CDX,CGC and TDI. I have a new pup DS who is UKC registered but would probally not fit their criteria either. Both of these dogs fit the breed standard. Guess their gene pool will be small and that is sad. Pat C, Spirit, Dutch and Thunder from Ma

Hi Pat,

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It is my understanding that the DS Parent Club that is working with AKC will only allow the acceptance of FCI dogs, regardless of the number of generations brindle or the individual dog meeting the breed standard. I believe they were also trying to limit which FCI dogs were accepted, however I am not sure that has been successful. AKC has a relationship with FCI, and I don't think they can deny acceptance to an FCI dog. So if your dog is FCI, then you can submit to AKC directly and by pass the breed club. I know of at least 3 different dogs who have become part of the foundation stock without going through the Parent Club.

If your dogs are not eligible for that, but you are not interested in breeding, you can have fixed dogs obtain a PAL number and compete in the performance sports. If they are intact then you will just have to go with another venue.

I am happy to see more working people registering their dogs. I know there are FCI registered working DS in the country, even if some are Belgian RISH (open) registered.

The DSCNA does not collect registrations for dogs. During the summer, the club offered to send in registrations for free, but that period has ended. Applications need to be sent directly to the AKC. The AKC will accept any FCI registration except Federación Canófila de Puerto Rico. And once a year the club gets a computer printout of all the AKC registrations.

The DSCNA is working closely with the NHC, who is concerned about the number of mixed DS showing up in the studbooks of other countries as "purebred". They had a meeting earlier this year with representatives of other country's registries, who still have open registries for DS, to ask them to tighten up their registration practices for Dutch Shepherds.

I know many people on the board aren't concerned about pedigrees, and believe that only IPO-type "working" ability is the only thing the breed should do. Those people don't even need to be concerned with the AKC, which is the only American all-breed registry recognized by the FCI. Anybody who wants to enter an FCI event, e.g. the FCI World Agility Championship next month, has to have an AKC registered dog.

Carole

CaroleBoaz wrote:The DSCNA does not collect registrations for dogs. During the summer, the club offered to send in registrations for free, but that period has ended. Applications need to be sent directly to the AKC. The AKC will accept any FCI registration except Federación Canófila de Puerto Rico. And once a year the club gets a computer printout of all the AKC registrations.

Gash...interesting. I somehow doubt that Thuin (where FCI headquarters are) will be happy to hear that an foreign registry refuses papers from an FCI affiliate.

The DSCNA is working closely with the NHC, who is concerned about the number of mixed DS showing up in the studbooks of other countries as "purebred". They had a meeting earlier this year with representatives of other country's registries, who still have open registries for DS, to ask them to tighten up their registration practices for Dutch Shepherds.

To make the NHC the 'standard of perfection" when it comes to the breed is horrible and laughable. That is the same club that does not make x rays mandatory for breeding stock, allegedly since there is no problem in the breed. Unfortunately, though, the NHC is indeed the current parent club in the country of origin. I am not sure if anything can change now that Europe has had to accept multiple breed registries per country per breed, but that is besides the point. The point is that the NHC is indeed trying to close the gene pool, of a breed that is extremely close to extinction, numbers wise. For example: A world wide population of maybe 500 rough haired DS's spells disaster and I am convinced that only opening the stud book might save that variety. Yet, the breed club appears to be of the opinion that the alleged stamp of 'pure bred' is more important than the survival of the breed as a whole and is merely rallying to increase popularity of the variety, without any talk, at this point, of even allowing inter-variety crosses (as in: short hair x rough hair) let alone crossing outside the breed. And the American "for decroration only" club that affiliates itself with those who are trying at all cost to kill the breed (not save it) are showing their total lack of basic understanding of what constitutes a breed, and what constitutes a healthy population.

I know many people on the board aren't concerned about pedigrees, and believe that only IPO-type "working" ability is the only thing the breed should do. Those people don't even need to be concerned with the AKC, which is the only American all-breed registry recognized by the FCI. Anybody who wants to enter an FCI event, e.g. the FCI World Agility Championship next month, has to have an AKC registered dog.

Nope. Anybody who would want to enter an FCI event, would have to have an FCI dog. No need for AKC.

Go ahead and color me stupid, but I just don't get why non-FCI DS are not to be considered "true" or "real" DS.

If you go far enough back in any breed, they're all combinations of varying types/breeds/lines.

Does the FCI believe there there has never been anything but DS in their dogs? Or, they just pick a certain number of generations that they consider it kosher to then be able to be called a true DS?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr