Dutch Shepherd Forum

leih merigian wrote:I get my DE from Wolf Creek Ranch, which is probably wolfcreekranch.com, something like that . They carry tons of natural products, and I've bought other things from them as well.

They have a whole deal about DE there, as well as for each of their products. .

I found Wolf Creek to be way overpriced. I use to buy from them, but I can get a 50# bag for what I use to pay for 12# and get it shipped free! The only thing I buy there now is the HWF. (heartworm free)

Lauren wrote:Thank you Nordis, That was a much better explanation of DE than I could muster.

Nematodes have worked very well in the past, but I am a beekeeper and am worried to try the enzymes that you mention because of my bee girls...

My dogs are on a raw diet (mostly chicken)...

...also, we added a polar fleece dog cover to our bed at about the same time as his reaction (but I could have sworn that it happened before...

I have ordered my flea free and brewed up some rosemary spray... fingers crossed

Thanks Lauren. I'm a bit of an aquarium freak, so diatoms and DE are something I know about from fish husbandry. You can't imagine the number of people I've forced to sit through that explanation of DE!

Yea! Bees! How very cool. If you're not aware, the Nordis Foundation happily accepts donations of honey! Yeah, I wouldn't even consider the enzymes because of the bees. I think John could consider it for his yard in his "dangerous ticks" location, but certainly not for you and your busy buzzy bees.

I'll not go into the raw diet with chicken and salmonella, as I'm sure you know way more about that than I do. I know nothing about raw diets as I've never been inclined to look into it and I'm happy with my lazy feeding methods. However, I will say that unless you're getting free range chicken, that might be an area that could be considered in regards to your current issue. Mass produced chicken is given lots of stuff, hormones for example, and I can easily imagine that they may have increased, switched or added new stuff to the feed for chickens that may have caused an allergic reaction with your dogs. I know people who, within 15 minutes of eating some chicken, will say it had hormones in it based on how their body is reacting to it. Those are people who are really in tune with what their body is telling them though. Food for thought. Maybe switching for the brand of chicken for a month or so will tell you if that is the culprit if you can't talk to the company?

Maybe try washing the polar fleece? I think it might not be a bad idea to give a bath upon removal of the cover so if that is what's causing the problems it can be more easily identified. I'm just guessing.

It's also occurred to me that if the spot(s) are being scratched due to itching you may want to try vinegar or some type of mint oil/extract/product as both are used to stop itching. I know both really help me if I've been bitten by a flea or mosquito or have a persistent itch. Just a thought. Possibly mixed into the coconut oil that is being suggested? I really hope Thor and Xena are doing better soon.

I think the rosemary will be effective. I encourage you to experiment with some of the others candidates as well when heating the cauldron. Lemon, orange, or whatever along with the rosemary if you feel inspired. If anything, you'll have some fancy smelling dogs! Personally I love growing rosemary plants! Good luck and here's hoping for positive results!

leih merigian wrote:Nordis! Whew! You can be our resident encyclopedia! (and I mean that in the very best way )

The DE...I use it as a parasite preventative. Geyser loves loves LOVES to eat poop, any kind of poop. While I don't allow it, she does manage to snag the occasional forbidden treat. Besides that, she drinks from streams and such...she's never had worms of any kind, and I hope never does. Ditto the cats, who are predators and eat lots of things that they catch, all of which carry different crap (ask Nordis for the details ).

Nordis wrote: I'm sorry, did you say something? I must have nodded off.

Of course, always food grade, which you can still use on bedding and such if you have any flea issues inside the house.

The only bone I'd pick with you, Nordis, is the one about cats and garlic. It's not true. ... I don't remember the details (wish I had your brain!). Moderation, of course, but it's not toxic to cats.

You don't want that! My brain has more holes than all the diatoms in the world!

I'll be one of those old old old encyclopedia sets you find in a dusty box with several volumes missing. The missing volumes can represent my memory! Actually, most of what I have to share comes from past experience, such as with the DE, and from past research I've done coupled with way too many open windows on the computer while making sure what I remember is correct, looking for anything else that may be helpful, and looking for any reports that some information is very wrong. I kind of have a thing about looking for questions that don't have answers in a google/internet search. I actually come up with a few once in a while. It's fun for me because I've found most really odd questions have actually already been asked!

I'm a bit uncomfortable knowing you are still able to wipe off ticks when you get home even though you've sprayed before you left. I'd be thinking the stuff isn't working if I found ticks. I'd be looking for a barrel of crude oil, or some other drastic measure. I really don't like ticks! (As you can see I found the emoticons!)

Then again maybe I'm wrong because I am ignorant of ticks for the most part. I've had very little experience with them. Three I've found walking about in my house. A couple actually on a pet, I'm thinking maybe three times at the most, and then when I got my puppy he came with a complimentary supply of the little green ones. They were in the process of dying off because of his recent vet visit prior to me getting him, but I was a bit shocked that he had them at all considering the source and the amount of money I had paid. Still can't quite figure that out.

Anyway, I'm wondering if additions to the spray may be helpful. Like apple cider vinegar, or some of the oils, or something. Personally I loathe blood suckers, especially ticks. I try to be understanding and I'm sure they're nice and all, but not in my territory! Plus there is the fear of the diseases they can carry. I just don't want that at all. Maybe I should carry a tiny flame thrower. (Hahaha! Written before I found the emoticons!! Can't find a crystal ball emoticon though!) (Should have seen that coming!)

Hahahaha! I don't know about that stuff! The dog really doesn't get to roam off leash on walks as I'm not in a rural area, and I do my best to make sure things aren't eaten. Rorhin and I have little discussions now and then, but if I'm watching and I time it right I can tell him Don't and he'll leave the tasty stuff for the really hungry dogs that will need it. And then we get lots of praise and treats that are much better! The cats are indoor cats. I've done lots of night riding and saw SO many dead cats that had been killed when hit by cars in the streets. Huge owls tall enough to reach mid-thigh, coyotes in Every yard of Every neighborhood I lived in in a city of 25 million + people, FIV, and the knowledge that cats really do have a huge impact on local ecosystems are all the reasons why my cats stay inside. They may get to wander out the open door when I'm outside with my plants, but they don't go out of my area and when I say it's time to go in they go in. They get all the photosynthesis they need by sitting at the screen doors or at the windows. Worst of all, where I am now, people shoot them. My cats stay inside.

I do know there are some really scary multiple host parasites out there. Researching now: One is lung worms which come from snails and slugs, or a bird that has eaten a snail or slug that is infected. Round, Hook, and Tapeworms are all carried by rodents. Eating live or dead infected animals, and their feces or the feces of any other infected animal are common methods of picking up these parasites.

Humans can get Round, Hook, and Tapeworms if they are exposed to them properly from their infected pets. Children are at a greater risk for infection. "...roughly 10,000 children are infected with roundworms each year..." which can lead to blindness. I actually do know a person who is very sight challenged due to a parasite. I believe it was something commonly found in birds though I cannot recall the actual name of it.

Add whipworms to the list, along with "...and a few species of single-cell organisms, such as coccidian and Giardia, are the most common intestinal parasites."

Common methods of acquiring internal parasite infections:
Drinking contaminated water
Coming into contact with other infected animals
Coming into contact with feces containing parasite eggs or larvae
Swallowing fleas carrying the infective stage of tapeworms (the pet may swallow a flea when he or she bites or chews at his skin due to flea infestation)
Nursing from an infected mother
Eating a rodent or other animal carrying the infective stage of a parasite

Symptoms of infection of internal parasites:
"Healthy, well-fed pets may have an intestinal parasite infection without showing any physical signs, but keep an eye out for these changes:
Change in appetite
Coughing
Diarrhea (sometimes with blood)
Weight loss
Skin irritation and itching
Rough or dry coat
Overall poor appearance
A dog may scoot his rear end across the ground or carpet when infected with tapeworms because the worm
segments are irritating to the skin around the anus.

Single Cell Parasites:

Coccidia - "Pets can become infected by eating infected soil or licking contaminated paws or fur. Once swallowed, the parasites damage the lining of the intestine and your pet cannot absorb nutrients from its food. Bloody, watery diarrhea may result, and the animal may become dehydrated because it loses more water in its stool than it can replace by drinking. Young pets are most often infected because their immune systems may not yet be strong enough to fight off the parasite. Coccidia can be very contagious among young puppies and kittens, so households with multiple pets should be especially careful to practice good hygiene and sanitation.

"A routine fecal test by your veterinarian will detect the presence of coccidia. Treatment with medications will prevent the parasite from multiplying and allow time for you pet’s immune system to kill the parasites."

From Wiki (ugh! complicated! but picking the easy parts) - "...over 300 species...particularly prevalent in amphibians and reptiles, the genus is more well known in veterinary circles for causing a tick-borne disease called hepatozoonosis in some mammals." That means calmer waters where most amphibians will be might be places to be more careful I'm guessing.

"Hepatozoonosis, therefore, results when an animal eats an infected tick - the disease is not spread by tick bites. Species include Hepatozoon muris and Hepatozoon canis, which typically infects mice and dogs, respectively, and Hepatozoon atticorae, which is found in birds."

Giardia "infections occur through ingesting or coming into contact with contaminated food, soil, or water. Giardia damages the lining of the intestines of humans and other animals and reduces the absorption of nutrients from the food your pet eats. While most Giardia infections do not cause illness, severe infections can lead to diarrhea.

"Giardia is harder to diagnose than other intestinal parasites, and several stool samples may have to be tested before it is found. If necessary, your veterinarian will recommend treatment with medications to eliminate the infection. Because it is highly contagious among animals, good hygiene and sanitation are important when there are multiple pets in the household."

From Wiki: "The Giardia parasite originates from contaminated items and surfaces that have been tainted by the feces of an infected animal."

The symptoms of Giardia, "which may begin to appear 2 days after infection, include violent diarrhea, excess gas, stomach or abdominal cramps, upset stomach, and nausea. Resulting dehydration and nutritional loss may need immediate treatment. After 1-2 days of diarrhea, the opposite occurs, constipation for 4-7 days, still with acute gas production. The typical infection within an individual can be slight, resolve without treatment, and last between 2–6 weeks, although sometimes longer and/or more severe. Coexistence with the parasite is possible, symptoms fade, but one can remain a carrier and transmit it to others. Medication containing tinidazole or metronidazole decreases symptoms and time to resolution, albendazole is also used and has an anti-helmintic (anti-worm) property as well, ideal for certain compounded issues when a general vermicidal agent is preferred."

"Person-to-person transmission accounts for a majority of Giardia infections and is usually associated with poor hygiene and sanitation. Water-borne transmission is associated with the ingestion of contaminated water. In the U.S. outbreaks typically occur in small water systems using inadequately treated surface water. Venereal transmission happens through fecal-oral contamination."

(Quotation marks are used partly to show that I didn't say any of this, and also to not let on that I copied and pasted most of this earlier and don't feel like going back to find out the exact placements of the quotation marks.)

Ok, really not liking this now. Different mites that cause mange, related to the scabies mite, are out there. Transmission is normally through skin to skin contact. So I can see a dead stray found by a curious roamer may be one way of introduction to our guys.

Wiki: "A number of parasitical treatments are useful in treating canine scabies. Sulfurated lime ...rinses applied weekly or biweekly are effective (the concentrated form for use on plants as a fungicide must be diluted 1:16 or 1:32 for use on animal skin).

Selamectin is licensed for treatment in dogs by veterinary prescription in several countries; it is applied as a dose directly to the skin, once per month (the drug does not wash off). A related and older drug ivermectin is also effective and can be given by mouth for two to four weekly treatments ... [ivermectin] is not safe to use on some collie-like herding dogs, however, due to possible homozygous MDR1 (P-glycoprotein) mutations that increase its toxicity by allowing it into the brain. Ivermectin injections are also effective and given in either weekly or every two weeks in one to four doses, although the same MDR1 dog restrictions apply.

Topical 0.01% ivermectin in oil (Acarexx) has been reported to be effective in humans, and all mite infections in many types of animals (especially in ear mite infections where the animal cannot lick the treated area), and is so poorly absorbed that systemic toxicity is less likely in these sites. Nevertheless, topical ivermectin has not been well enough tested to be approved for this use in dogs, and is theoretically much more dangerous in zones where the animal can potentially lick the treated area. Selamectin applied to the ... topically... has some of the same theoretical problems in collies and MDR1 dogs as ivermectim, but it has nevertheless been approved for use for all dogs provided that the animal can be observed for 8 hours after the first monthly treatment. [!?!?!?!?!]

Similar treatments, including monthly selamectin, are used in cats with mange. A notable difference for cat treatment is that permethrin, which can be used in both dogs and humans with this condition, cannot be used in cats. The ... mitocides ... are poisonous to the host.

I'm sure there's more. Then there are the different poisonous animals out there. I read one comment somewhere that someone suspected their dog died due to a black widow bite, considering he was an avid bugger. That's when I stopped encouraging bug hunting in the house. Rattlesnakes are about (I know there are classes in some areas to teach dogs they need to be avoided) along with many of the other poisonous snakes here in the U.S. Wht else, let's see... mountain lions, bears, naughty ravens, bigfoot (bigfeet?) and yeti, aliens, portals to alternate dimensions, time vortexes, oh my.

You know what, I don't want to do this anymore! This stuff is just too scary for an already paranoid, worst case scenario person! And surely there's a photo contest that needs voting on! I'm sorry puppy, but you're just going to have to stick with me when we go wandering.

I'm a huge advocate of garlic for so many reasons. It's wonderful for fish parasites, and we all know vampires don't like it. So if it keeps vampires away then surely it works for fleas, ticks and mosquitoes. That's always been my logical thought process. But I've cut back a lot on using it now, purely based on the confusion found by reading too much internet chatter. So many different opinions from qualified professionals. It's just maddening to me.

Moderation again seems to be key. "...extremely high levels for an extended period of time to have a detrimental effect..." and "4 teaspoons of garlic powder = 4 cloves would be toxic to an average cat." For me, I'm sticking to if and when needed. I really don't like mosquitoes and the potential threat they represent. Maybe I'll start dusting my dog with DE when it warms up. And yes, we'll be getting our heartworm and parvo stuff. Research to come. Joy.

Leih, I hope you have just learned your lesson about prompting me to share anything! But I will share the honey Lauren gives me with you!

leih merigian wrote:If I forgot something, someone remind me

Stop making fun of me!!!

johninny wrote:ok, well, this is all a lot to take in. thank you all for helping to guide me. feel a little guilty Lauren, as you are the one really needing our help at the moment.

Nordis, thank you for the in-depth understanding of DE and especially how it works - brilliant explanation; it sounds particularly dangerous to me as a dust - in terms of lungs. caution with brewers yeast as can cause painful bloating and convert to alcohol and thus alcohol poisoning. garlic destroys a dog's red blood cells and can cause anemia if persistent even in small regular doses. pancreatitis also a risk from garlic, which can be very and suddenly dangerous and the risk of such would increase from cumulative effects of continued garlic intake.

I second that John. I also feel I don't want to take away from the importance and priority of the thread which is Lauren and Thor and Xena. I've tried to keep everything limited to something I hope may be useful to all of us and still on Lauren's topic. Sorry Lauren for the places where I fall short of this.

I don't consider DE dangerous, but I do respect it and use it in specific ways. Kind of like fire I guess. Fire is dangerous yes. But we know how to use it. Except that spilling DE in your house won't make you homeless. If you're working at a DE collection site and romping and skipping about beating piles of it with feather dusters and throwing up buckets of it into the air to make pretty clouds to run through, you'll likely have some problems!

Since you won't be doing that, you'll be fine. Taken internally, you'll be wanting a bag of DE marked "Chemical Codex Food Grade" and you should be able to find that at feed supply stores. Health food stores as well, though I expect you'll be finding smaller amounts for a much higher price. Feed stores seem to be carrying 50 pound bags, one price was about $15 but I've not shopped about for it and that was dated information. Again, Don't get the swimming pool filter DE. Stick with the food grade.

Yes, I agree with you that it seems scary. Basically we're talking about microscopic shards of glass full of holes. Very harmful to little bugs and parasites, and to lungs and not great to put in your eyes, but fine for passing through the digestive tract. I'm sure I've just totally put you off of DE just there! Sorry. It's safe to use when used properly. Personally I get concerned when it comes to dusting my pets. A DS shaking will make a bit of a cloud and so will my more enthusiastic petting. I'll then likely move us to a new location and know that where we've just left will have less parasite potential when we go back in a minute or so. I can say in past experiences in our home we have dusted pets with DE and there were never any problems. I'm sure Lieh can provide input to reassure you since she currently uses it. (Sorry, I wrote this a while ago and I know other information and input has been added to the thread, but I'm not editing what I've written so you can get your mental practice for today.)

As I'm looking about, the wet application of DE to pets and then letting it dry is making a lot of sense to me. I'll put a quote I found about applying DE while it's wet in a response to Feraloup following this one.

And the only other thing would be allergies to silicon, which if you or your pets have them, you're quite rare individuals and you learned about your silicon allergy long long ago because it's basically impossible to avoid being exposed to silicon. So that means you don't have to worry about it is what I'm saying.

And thanks for the input on the yeast and the garlic. I'm not really motivated to try the yeast, and garlic is on the table so to speak. Maybe I'll just do a tincture and spray it topically along with some other stuff. I'll have to see when the time comes.

johninny wrote:p.s., Nordis, are you sure that ground cloves will not/ cannot do real harm. most things like that are really bad news for dogs, but I have no specific info/knowledge re danger in cloves. love it myself, but I know the smell of cloves will drive mice from a house.

I have used the ground cloves that I use for pumpkin bread (MMMmmm!) and added some to the cat food container as well as adding it to the dog's meals. The cat food container when full lasts for at least three weeks with my two cats. I used it also in my puppy's food when I first got him to ensure he didn't get more roundworms after we got rid of his other friends he brought with him. I was giving it to the cats at that time as a precautionary measure, and then everyone got it again for awhile when I identified tapeworms in the cat stool, this time the dog got it as a preventive measure since he seems to think cat's need sniffing.

From University of Maryland Medical Center - Eugenol oil overdose (Clove Oil)

"Definition of Eugenol oil overdose: Eugenol oil (clove oil) overdose occurs when someone accidentally or intentionally swallows a large amount of a product containing this ingredient."
from: http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/002647all.htm

and

Found at: http://www.ehow.com/facts_6540382_safet ... -dogs.html

"Birthing Problems
"The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog and Cat," by Juliette De Bairacle Levy, lists cloves as one of the herbs used in the herbal formula to help female dogs retain pups." (She was an amazing person! Check her out on wiki!)

"Objects in the Ear
Clove oil can be used to remove foreign objects from a dog's ear ear. The cloves provide an antibiotic action, while the foreign object floats toward the ear opening in the oil.

"Tooth Pain
As in humans, clove oil applied directly to a dog's tooth or gum provides excellent temporary pain relief from toothache or from a new tooth growing in.

"Worms
You can grind cloves and sprinkle it over your dog's food to help the dog expel various types of intestinal worms.

"Vomiting
Given as a tea, along with peppermint and ginger, cloves provide relief to a vomiting dog. Cloves have the effect of calming the stomach and improving digestion, as well as helping relieve gas and nausea."

There is no mention at all of the clove oil, spice, or tree genus Syzygium on the ASPCA Toxic and Non-Toxic Plants

http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-control/Plants

Actually, other than aromatherapy at one kennel, and a comment posted on an article about nose work being done at another kennel, I can find no mention of cloves at all on the ASPCA site. The only potential mention is in a Thanksgiving celebration article. Along with the examples of turkey and mashed potatoes they say:

"...even a lick of pumpkin pie shouldn’t pose a problem. However, don't allow your pets to overindulge..."

I've never used the oil, though many people recommend it for toothaches and other stuff. It is commonly used as an anthelmintic (big impressive word for intestinal worm killer). As well, wiki states: "In the 3rd century BC, a Chinese leader in the Han Dynasty required those who addressed them to chew cloves so as to freshen their breath." Anyone care for a stick of Black Jack, Beeman's, or Clove gum? (Ew!)

I think the DE would have been my first choice if I knew it was used for intestinal parasites, since I already knew about many other uses for it, but since I didn't, I went with the cloves and neither cats nor dog had any problems and the worms were gone. I think if you're concerned about cloves, just use the DE if you have such an issue.

johninny wrote:oh, and Lauren, very glad to hear of this winter's bee survival. must be harrowing
bees, whales, dolphins - all drive me nuts if I think too much about the perils they face!
and that we face without the bees !

I totally agree with you on this. I react the same way you dol

The Frog Renewal Organization Group is incensed that you've not mentioned them as well. I covered for you, and they have forgiven you!

feraloup wrote:I'm a big fan of the DE, myself! I use it in the nestboxes of my chicken coop, and whenever I do a big cleanout of the coop, usually twice a year (I have a large, spacious indoor coop for a fairly sizeable backyard flock that also has access to free-ranging, and I do deep-litter bedding management the rest of the time,) I lock the chooks out, wear a dustmask, and dust the whole coop with DE. Then I don't let them back in until it has all settled. I also use it for areas in the house. Because it is a respiratory risk to breathe the dust I only do it wearing a mask and when the critters are elsewhere. I do use it in their food, too, but hesitate to use it on their bodies only because it is hard to apply it without it getting airborn.

Large volumes of food-grade DE can be had at most farm stores such as Tractor Supply Company and other similar venues. Smaller bags can be had at many pet stores, too, but it's much more expensive to purchase that way.

Maybe you'll find this interesting, maybe not. I just thought I'd add it here for everyone as it seems to make sense, though it doesn't make for immediate satisfaction since it has to dry out. And really, I guess with a 50 pound bag we don't need to worry too much about using a bit extra to make sure all areas are covered.

"To apply with water, mix ¼ cup of DE in a gallon of water and apply to the lawn and/or shrubs where pest problems exist.
The wet spray method does work but only after the liquid has dried. Mix from 1-4 tablespoons DE per gallon of water and spray on the lawn, shrubs, tree trunks and building foundations. When the mixture dries, it has the same dehydrating powers as the original dry dust. When sprayed wet the material covers the foliage and other surfaces better than dusting dry, thus giving better insect control. It seems to last longer when applied wet but the dry application is usually more effective at killing insects quickly."

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Diatomaceous-Earth_vq21.htm

I also read chickens and Guinea fowl are really good at pest control, including ticks and mosquitoes. Maybe you have some input as to having them in the yard, how they might fare sharing a yard with our dogs, and if you think they are an effective means to help control pests?

Ooh! Thank you, Nordis! I will have to try the wet-apply method for DE. That's a good idea.

Chickens and guinea fowl are indeed excellent insect control. Guineas, in particular, are known "tickinators."

I adore my chickens. "The pet that feeds you breakfast!" Our girls give us delicious eggs, entertain us with their antics, and eat nasties that would eat us or our garden, as well as providing fabulous fertilizer. Keeping them with dogs depends on the dog and management. We're still working on getting Moko to be trustworthy around chickens. Work in progress. If given the opportunity, which he hasn't been allowed, he'd chase and eat one. But my 12 year old hyper-prey-drive Singer mix is at the point where she is chicken-safe, so there's hope.

Whenever 6-month old Moko has me rolling my eyes and wondering if I'll ever mold him into a good canine citizen, my mantra that I fall back on for reassurance and inspiration is "Maiyou was worse, Maiyou was worse, Maiyou was SO much worse..." (I also remind HER of that fact, occasionally, when she gives me an arch look after Moko has attempted some mischief or other buffoonery that she holds in contempt.)

Guineas are the ultimate in pest control, they range a much farther radius than chickens and are more aggressive and sharp about tick-targeting. I don't recall the exact number, (though I'm sure you can find it, Nordis, *admiring grin*) but I want to say I read somewhere some factoid about a pair of guineas being able to keep something like 8 acres tick-free or somesuch. (Don't quote me on that, maybe it was 3 acres, or 10, but I recall being impressed,) HOWEVER, they are much less tame than chooks, and they are LOUD and make obnoxiouis noises that you will need to consider depending on how close and/or complainey any neighbors may be. They, like geese, though, due to their vociferousness, made excellent guard animals. NO ONE, not even a ninja, is getting close to your property without you hearing about it before they reach you! Ugly feathered alarm system. (:lol: also a factor for some people, while guinea fowl babies are cute, the adults are oooogly! They have these funky, colored, naked, helmeted, vulture-esque dinosaurian countenance!)

I'd like a small flock of guineas, but my fiancee and his Uncle Joe (whose farm I keep my livestock at, as we don't own our own property at this time,) have vetoed them. The chickens and pheasants aren't total slouches, though.

Nordis, even half a teaspoon of garlic powder on a dog's meal is way way too much. you can go without a problem for awhile, and then one day your dog will just lay down and seem incapable of moving . I urge extreme caution about feeding garlic [ and the powder seems much worse than fresh for some reason ].
in a spray, your dog may be unhappy, but it is not toxic enough to worry about as a spray and generally repugnant to the dog so not likely to want to lick much off anyway. so spray sounds like an interesting idea [that could be quite effective?], but nothing but trace amounts in food also wise. I have fed plenty of greenies and a few treats with trace amounts of garlic mixed with lots of other herbs, but adding it in a meaningful way is something that could sharply decrease the quality [ and maybe the length ] of your dog's life. applying DE directly to a dog's fur - wet or dry - still sounds way too dangerous to me. like asbestos, the effect of breathing a bit of that 'shake cloud' may not show up in you or him for some time, but there is no way, given your description of the stuff, that even tiny amounts would not cause permanent inflammation of the lungs - bad enough in itself but sure to lead to other complications AND diseases down the road.
I read your additional writings with great interest and much appreciate the increased knowledge base I gained and the increased vigilance I can provide to my dogs. thank you.

Nordis wrote:
I'll not go into the raw diet with chicken and salmonella, as I'm sure you know way more about that than I do. I know nothing about raw diets as I've never been inclined to look into it and I'm happy with my lazy feeding methods. However, I will say that unless you're getting free range chicken, that might be an area that could be considered in regards to your current issue. Mass produced chicken is given lots of stuff, hormones for example, and I can easily imagine that they may have increased, switched or added new stuff to the feed for chickens that may have caused an allergic reaction with your dogs. I know people who, within 15 minutes of eating some chicken, will say it had hormones in it based on how their body is reacting to it. Those are people who are really in tune with what their body is telling them though. Food for thought. Maybe switching for the brand of chicken for a month or so will tell you if that is the culprit if you can't talk to the company?

The FDA doesn't have any hormones approved for use with poultry, so if you're buying meat in the US from a legit source i.e the grocery store or an inspected farm, they're all going to be hormone free, regardless of the packaging. It could very well be a reaction to the feed that the chickens are being fed, but it's not hormones.

Before you go commenting on the raw diet, kibble has salmonella as well and it's mainly an issue for owners. Unless there's a serious health issue, dogs are incredibly capable of digesting food with salmonella (they eat poop and trash afterall).

Please no worries about going off topic for my sake! I am learning a whole lot and that is the point of the board~ sharing thoughts, ideas and knowledge.

I started everyone on the "flea free" so fingers crossed! My chickens do an excellent job of ridding the yard of bugs and weed seeds... unfortunately, the hawks, the resident red fox and my very own Xena really can rid the yard of girls when they are allowed out..... So they don't get out as much as any of us would like.

The only other caution I would add for the DE is that it almost killed my vacuum cleaner once. I put way too much DE out, left it until my hubby was complaining and then tried to vacuum BUT 4 bags later, we all lived through it.