Dutch Shepherd Forum

katm4110 wrote:How long will it take to get Stella used to a basket muzzle? Nico flies in next week!

With lots of hots dogs - no time Once she is distracted, she will be less likely to notice it anyhow. You just don't want her clawing at her face to get it off or risk her actually getting it off. So a few days of positive association should be fine.

Christie M wrote:I would just condition to a basket muzzle and then give them much more free reign. The muzzle will stop someone from getting injured (which is really, really rare) and take your interference out of the equation. No offense, but usually when humans "help" with introductions they often add stress to the situation and inhibit clear communication between the dogs. If there is no blood, then its OK - at least that is my thought for the most part. I don't let anyone get truly punked, but they have to work things out some and 99 times out of 100, a male and a female will be just fine. The female will put him in his place

Remember - with all of that restraint and leashes - if the dogs are in conflict there is only fight or flight. If you are removing the flight option with tight leashes....and sending all of your nervousness down the umbilical cord/leash....then there is no flight option. You will cause aggression where there was none.

That's why we went with the dragline rather than having them leashed with a handler for the official meeting. Since it was an outdoor semi-neutral area, we wanted a way to be able to grab someone if they decided to leave the property completely or if they got into trouble like falling into the pond.

The helped introduction trainer was to deal with leash reactivity and to work on being around other dogs on leash, which also translated to Odin being more comfortable around other dogs in general. While muzzled off leash introductions are great for play dates and adding a new dog, the chance of encountering another dog on leash while Odin is on leash is much higher, especially in the dog sport world, so it was important to work on introductions and passbys with a handler involved as well.

LyonsFamily wrote: That's why we went with the dragline rather than having them leashed with a handler for the official meeting. Since it was an outdoor semi-neutral area, we wanted a way to be able to grab someone if they decided to leave the property completely or if they got into trouble like falling into the pond.

The helped introduction trainer was to deal with leash reactivity and to work on being around other dogs on leash, which also translated to Odin being more comfortable around other dogs in general. While muzzled off leash introductions are great for play dates and adding a new dog, the chance of encountering another dog on leash while Odin is on leash is much higher, especially in the dog sport world, so it was important to work on introductions and passbys with a handler involved as well.

Agree completely. I was specifically referring to the new household addition. What you did with Odin was awesome!!!!

I like the drag leash idea.... Stella's e collar is very effective on her.... could I do drag leash on both dogs Stella with her prong and e collar on? that way there is some distance from us and she feels more at ease? She has to be muzzled when we get her nails clipped and she hates it. The techs from the vet's office are super nice and come out to the parking lot so we don't have to bring her in there. (that gives her major anxiety issues) buts I'm afraid she may already have a negative association with muzzles. I really feel that she is more barky and anxious than anything. She has had opportunities to go after other dogs (while walking past other's on leash) and she's never even tried. Wouldn't a dog who is truly dog aggressive try to really get at the other dog? She just whines and tries not to make eye contact with the other dog (she used to bark but was corrected for that) it's like we can really see her trying.

katm4110 wrote:I like the drag leash idea.... Stella's e collar is very effective on her.... could I do drag leash on both dogs Stella with her prong and e collar on? that way there is some distance from us and she feels more at ease? She has to be muzzled when we get her nails clipped and she hates it. The techs from the vet's office are super nice and come out to the parking lot so we don't have to bring her in there. (that gives her major anxiety issues) buts I'm afraid she may already have a negative association with muzzles. I really feel that she is more barky and anxious than anything. She has had opportunities to go after other dogs (while walking past other's on leash) and she's never even tried. Wouldn't a dog who is truly dog aggressive try to really get at the other dog? She just whines and tries not to make eye contact with the other dog (she used to bark but was corrected for that) it's like we can really see her trying.

I would skip the prong because of the likelihood of injury. It's really easy for another dog to get a tooth caught in a prong while wrestling or even easy playing or for the prong to get hooked onto something like a tree. I never leave a prong on unless there is a leash attached and me on the other end. Unless I'm taking a quick photo and remove the leash for a better shot, but there's no moving during that.

I was grooming in back of a daycare once and heard yelling so I put my dog away and ran up to the front play room.

One dog got his tooth caught in another's prong while they were playing and then they started fighting and a 3rd dog jumped in and the daycare owner went to unhook the dog and she got bit bad. Luckily the 3rd dog had a dragline that I was able to step on while he was in a different part of the room chasing them. Had there been no prong, there wouldn't have been an injury.

The dragline is a prevention tool more for either catching the dog if he/she starts to run, or redirecting for getting into things, not for a collar correction. So, I think hooking it to a regular collar would've been fine in this instance. You could probably argue that a collar and dragline could pose a safety risk as well, but I don't see those as big of a threat as a prong because they're flat and slip past things easier.

Perhaps Christi can better advise you on whether or not to use the ecollar. While I understand their usefulness in training and see others using them well, I don't use them regularly enough to give advice on their use in this situation. My use of ecollars in limited to perimeter fencing (invisible fence) and helping with recalls and off leash reliability, mainly for hunting dogs. I use them on a beep or low level stim for that though which is conditioned as a cue rather than correction.

Stephanie, i have never used e-collars but feel i might/should try one for exactly what you say -- as an aid to improve off-leash recall reliability. is there one you would recommend that might be waterproof/water-safe?
[ are any waterproof/safe for swimming environment? ]

What a nice story!

johninny wrote:Stephanie, i have never used e-collars but feel i might/should try one for exactly what you say -- as an aid to improve off-leash recall reliability. is there one you would recommend that might be waterproof/water-safe?
[ are any waterproof/safe for swimming environment? ]

John, I prefer Dogtra brand collars. I'm not sure what models they have out right now that are waterproof and have the low levels with the beep option, but I'm sure you'll find one. Dogtra runs a bit high price wise. I get them at wholesale and the markup is ridiculously low, sometimes places have them on sale for cheaper than I can get.

The dogtra trainer and beeper collar has a few different beeps as well as vibration, nick, and constant stim and it's also waterproof. They have more simple models too, if you don't need all of those features. I have a multi-dog one with built in gps, but it's way overkill for anything other than pack hunting.

For other brands, I would stay away from box stores (Petsmart, Petco, PSP) that cater to pet dogs as those collars are often higher stim and more unpredictable than the brands made for working dogs and hunters. Gun Dog Supply is where I get a good amount of things at retail and they have quiet a few brands to sort through. I heard good things about Sport Dog and some of the Garmin products.

With any shock collar or correction tool, I always test them out on my thigh first before putting them on a dog.

Stephanie, thank you very much. I will do that. I think I just need a slight aid to remind them when they are super excited on the beach that I still exist and still matter. I hope just a beep or the smallest vibration or other stim will do the trick. but being on the [public] beach, I feel I have to speed up the perfection that I hope would evolve anyway over time. as obvious puppies, they can get away with a lot with most people, but people who do not know them will not appreciate puppy rowdiness when they look like full-grown 72# beasts racing down the beach with me lagging far in the distance. [ and the caffeinated one is a barker who loves to hear the sound of his own voice when he is excited or just happy - which does not help at all; fortunately, he still reads visually as a puppy, but probably not for much longer in most people's eyes. ]

We have had our e collar for 7 months and it still works great.... It's a dogtrd iQ Collar we ordered it through the last trainer we used. I used it as a recall reminder in the very beginning and haven't had to in a long time... she always comes when called. I keep it on her now when we go on walks or now that Nico is here when they're out together. I use it as an emergency thing only... I find verbal correction or prong corrections are better for obedience (she seriously never gives me an issue) it's a good tool to have though! Nico just stares at me and tilts his funny little head.... I probably won't ever use an e collar on him because he's such a marshmallow but holy crap he's going to be a challenge to train.... all I need from his is a down and stay and a recall we shall see! I'm hoping we can handle his training ourselves or that maybe he'll try and copy Stella? That would be fantastic!

Jon,

I agree with Stephanie completely about the Dogtra e-collarse-commerce. All of the collars are water proof, some of the transmitters are. I have had very few dogs need anything more than the IQ, which is the lowest end model. Remember also that when used in water you want to turn down the stimulation 75% because of the conductivity.

thank you all. I am sure my dogs are in that camp [ of needing the most subtle of a nudge on certain occasions ], so it is the Dogtra IQ [ ? ]. each is pretty good already, but I three puppies of varying age and none of them are the perfection I was used to with Tracedog. nevertheless, I give them great freedom, so when 2 or 3 of them together get so excited about something on the beach, any interest in what I think standing far down the beach just evaporates. so I hope a little nudge now and then will help get to a more perfect place more quickly.

one final question: what age is old enough to use the dogtra IQ collar in this gentle, by exception manner? [ especially for the newest and youngest, should I give him additional months of recall practice without even the gentlest of electric nudges, or do I dive right in with all three of them? ]

katm4110 wrote:.... all I need from his is a down and stay and a recall we shall see! I'm hoping we can handle his training ourselves or that maybe he'll try and copy Stella? That would be fantastic!

Prancer copies Sugar all the time....it's actually quite hilarious to see...for example I'll ask Prancer to sit and he doesn't and Sugar hears me from across the room and comes over and sits and looks at me like "see how good I am?" and so I treat her. Then I ask Prancer to sit and Sugar stands up and then sits down again and I treat her and Prancer watches her and quickly sits his butt down and looks at me for a treat

Sorry I missed this earlier.

johninny wrote:thank you all. I am sure my dogs are in that camp [ of needing the most subtle of a nudge on certain occasions ], so it is the Dogtra IQ [ ? ].

I think you would be fine with the IQ. The only thing I thought of is that you do have 3 dogs. If you wanted to have them all in a position to be reinforced, you would need 3 collars and have to coordinate 3 transmitters. Dog-tra does make a number of multi-dog units that would be easier to manage - and probably ultimately cheaper than buying 3 separate collars.

johninny wrote:one final question: what age is old enough to use the dogtra IQ collar in this gentle, by exception manner? [ especially for the newest and youngest, should I give him additional months of recall practice without even the gentlest of electric nudges, or do I dive right in with all three of them? ]

For me its more about understanding than age. That being said, I don't think very many puppies can have a great understanding of what is expected of them. The Dog-tra products have very, very low levels of stimulation. Where you end up working your dogs at would probably be undetectable by you if you put the collar on your wrist. However, the first time they feel it, they can panic and run forward. You want to make sure that your dog has a firm understanding of "come." Then you want to proof it under distraction on a long line so that the only option when they feel a stimulation is to come to you. Then I tend to do it around other dogs in a fenced in area. THEN I will use it in a completely off leash situation.

oh, Christie, thank you so much for such a complete road map. TraceDog refined his skills on the streets of Manhattan, so there was always a new and unforeseen distraction and precision was a natural element of what was required. I feel I cannot accomplish the same degree of certainty [ thus safety ] out here in the country [ and with 3 pups ] without a little help from this sort of aid if I am to avoid stress and conflict between me and the dogs.
I often did not even have a collar on TD when out in public -- and now I plan to use electric signals on their necks; such a new world for me. one year later I still miss TD more than I can stand sometimes.
again, thank you!