Dutch Shepherd Forum

Raven (don't forget to create a signature for yourself),

I was VERY against crating when I got my first dog and made mistakes with her doing it. Even with that she will go into the crate on her own. I trust her around the house and do not crate her unless travelling. when I tell Cino to "nest" she always gets in his crate before he does. ...it's just become part of the routine when I'm leaving.

With Hannah and Cino the crate training started the moment they arrived in my house. With the various rescues that came through my house I had different results...but they didn't have a choice.

At my house the crate is never a punishment. The crate is always a safe place. The dog's will go in there on their own. etc....

Crate training from the moment they come home makes it SOOO much easier to travel with them as well.

Raven. While we change Thor's name to Robin I wanted to ask you if you are looking at plastic/enclosed crates, or wire ones? The door lenghtwise will be impossible (I think) with the plastic version. The enlosed ones offer more or the den like feeling, but you could cover a wire crate for a similar effect. I have had huge brindles in my life (Arras was a big boy) and nobody needed a 700 crate (dane size) The airlines rule for standing room, is that the standing ear may not touch the top of the crate while they would stand totally head-up. And they don't ship 700 crates. Do the best you can, but don't fret too much over an inch of top room inside the crate if you have good clearing above the back. My own brindles are quite happy in a 40/27/30 nr 500. It would be interesting to hear what the rest of us are using though.

Okay on the signature.

I'm looking at wire and semi-enclosed. I wouldn't risk plastic with him--at least not in the beginning. As I recall, he measured about 36" (ground to ear-tip), so...?

Plastic is very sturdy, trust me. I ship mean@ss K9's in those all day long, and they cannot get out or get a hold of anything, although some can pop a door when extremely agitated (during bite work) A wire would be even less of a match for those dogs though.
I would say that he will be comfortable in a 500. It is the room above the back that you need to be concerned about. The airline guideline, IMHO, is extremely hard to obtain. (they don't make crates high enough to fit a 36 inch with clearing above the ears) and in reality, they are comfortable (really!) even if they have to hold their head slightly forward when standing.
Still hoping for some more size input from other members.

vneerland wrote:Plastic is very sturdy, trust me. I ship mean@ss K9's in those all day long, and they cannot get out or get a hold of anything, although some can pop a door when extremely agitated (during bite work) A wire would be even less of a match for those dogs though.
I would say that he will be comfortable in a 500. It is the room above the back that you need to be concerned about. The airline guideline, IMHO, is extremely hard to obtain. (they don't make crates high enough to fit a 36 inch with clearing above the ears) and in reality, they are comfortable (really!) even if they have to hold their head slightly forward when standing.
Still hoping for some more size input from other members.

I agree with Judith, and actually feel that the good quality plastic crates are safer than the wire ones. With wire, IF the dog gets very agitated, they can break teeth, cut themselves..etc. There are a variety of brands though, and I am not a fan of the remington/tractor supply company/walmart brand (walmart used to carry sturdy crates, but I can't find it anymore). Those crates tend to be softer plastic with a flimsy door. When traveling, my dogs are either in a 400 or 500. At home they all have 500s or wire crates that measure 42x25x28.

Like Eric, my dogs are often crated. But they do often seek refuge in the crate when the other dogs start wrestling or the pups get annoying.

To agree with Judith also, I see nothing wrong with putting a dog in a crate when they are doing something wrong. Its not so much a punishment as it is a time to calm down. I toss them in there with a raw hide or knuckle bone or something. It lets me get my whits back and keeps me from loosing my temper. I have never had that result in a dog that is resistant to go in.

Crate sizes...

Right now, we have a Vari kennel in the bedroom, a 400, that is working just fine, but she's not fully grown yet. I think she's around 46-47 lbs, now, and 23" (at the shoulder).

In the truck, I"ve got a wire crate, which her ears already touch if she stands up very straight. However, she's very comfortable in there and has plenty of room to rest and sit and do what she does while in the truck.

Have a really large wire crate in the front room, Great Dane sized, that I got second hand.

Love the XPen, too. She's in there quite a bit. The 400 is mostly for sleeping of if I'm not home and she's not with me.

Raven...glad you like the Crate Games video. You'll have a lot of fun training with it. And, it's just so much fun when the pennies drop, and even more, the results are fantastic, too .

I have had similar experience with plastic vs wire crates. Well-built plastic seems to hold up better. My toughest dogs are able to bend the wires on the wire crates and just squeeze right thru. I ended up converting most of my wire crates for rabbit cages. But I have had one or two dogs who could pull the wire door on the plastic and pop it right out. I think for transport that the dogs feel safer in the plastic as it is enclosed and blocks some of the environmental sounds that the wire doesnt. Also, in case one of them has an accident, the plastic keeps the stuff contained better and if it is in your vehicle, etc, keeps it from getting everywhere. Just my

GSDNanny wrote: Also, in case one of them has an accident, the plastic keeps the stuff contained better and if it is in your vehicle, etc, keeps it from getting everywhere. Just my

That is by far the best reason to go for the plastic ones

Marjolein wrote:

GSDNanny wrote: Also, in case one of them has an accident, the plastic keeps the stuff contained better and if it is in your vehicle, etc, keeps it from getting everywhere. Just my

That is by far the best reason to go for the plastic ones

No Sh*t!

(darn Marjolein: where is the smiley for that?)

vneerland wrote:Plastic is very sturdy, trust me. I ship mean@ss K9's in those all day long, and they cannot get out or get a hold of anything, although some can pop a door when extremely agitated (during bite work)

Uhm Judith? You really need to come over one day. I happen to know a small sized (22 kg) Dutch shepherd female who has no problem at all escaping from a sturdy 500 plastic bench. It can't be the quality of the kennel (as you bought it for me) so I just guess the lovely female I'm talking about is a bit meaner then your average mean@ss K9?
(for non-insiders: Koko was bred by Judith)
Seriously, she just destroyed the kennel door (she simply bent it). So even when I close the door her stay in the kennel is voluntarily.

OK back on topic: in case of a dog with a biting-history I think safety comes first, second, third and forth. Whether or not you like benches or kennels, you need to make sure Thor can't do anymore harm. So actually I like your husband's proposal: but let him make a full size kennel (if you have room for it). Outside the house: Muzzle. OK, it's nice when you can introduce all this in a calm and quiet manner, but in case of a dog with a history of biting people: sorry boy, get used to it. Once the safety issue is taken care of: then continue the training part. But my first priority would always be: avoid more people getting bitten. For the sake of those people but even more for the sake of the dog....

Kees

MXCasey wrote:

vneerland wrote:Plastic is very sturdy, trust me. I ship mean@ss K9's in those all day long, and they cannot get out or get a hold of anything, although some can pop a door when extremely agitated (during bite work)

Uhm Judith? You really need to come over one day. I happen to know a small sized (22 kg) Dutch shepherd female who has no problem at all escaping from a sturdy 500 plastic bench. It can't be the quality of the kennel (as you bought it for me) so I just guess the lovely female I'm talking about is a bit meaner then your average mean@ss K9?
(for non-insiders: Koko was bred by Judith)
Seriously, she just destroyed the kennel door (she simply bent it). So even when I close the door her stay in the kennel is voluntarily.

didn't is say "some can pop a door when extremely agitated". Koko's aunt and sister (don't ask!) Jade could pop any door. I eventually muzzled her during her crate time when we were doing bite work, since she was getting too expensive in the crate replacement department (and we could not afford the $1,000 dollar aluminum professional crate)
When shipping dogs that could do that (yup) we would put a padlock in front of the door so that it would not open far, even when popped.
NORMAL dogs don't break out of crates too easily though, especially under non stimulating circumstances.

OK back on topic: in case of a dog with a biting-history I think safety comes first, second, third and forth. Whether or not you like benches or kennels, you need to make sure Thor can't do anymore harm. So actually I like your husband's proposal: but let him make a full size kennel (if you have room for it). Outside the house: Muzzle. OK, it's nice when you can introduce all this in a calm and quiet manner, but in case of a dog with a history of biting people: sorry boy, get used to it. Once the safety issue is taken care of: then continue the training part. But my first priority would always be: avoid more people getting bitten. For the sake of those people but even more for the sake of the dog....

I don't know why, but in my mind, I see signs instead all the way to Raven's house:
"mean@ss dog. Turn around now. Last chance. You are entering at own risk. Ring the doorbell..if you dare"
(in other words, the problem of crate aversion and a dog that bites, could also be fixed by putting up a 10 foot fence with constertina wire on top, security camera's and numerous warnings and disclaimers. Either that, or simply don't receive any visitors. )

Hey, Judith....I think that you may be short-changing my commitment and ability.

I did, indeed, replace my standard chain-link with a stockade PRIOR to Thor's arrival based upon what I was told about him. I can't say that its installation was part of the adopt process, but it was thought a sound precautionary measure.

Based upon legal advice several years ago (because my adopts come pre-labeled with their own warnings), I do, indeed, have postings. Legally, no "Beware of Dog" signs, so yes, they are more succinct, but nothing over-the-top. I took legal advice. I don't use the signs to "manage."

As previously mentioned, I have pumped up the boy's training (non-crate as I haven't found one yet). Yesterday, for example, we had contractors surrounding the house on/off all day. He exhibited markedly improved reactions/behavior (impulse control, deference....). Likewise with other things. Do I think that I can now trust this? Certainly not.

But I am committed. (No comments, please.)

Raven. Some of us (me especially) have a different sense of humor. Not poking fun of you, nor short changing your commitment. Just envisioning possible over the top solutions.

vneerland wrote: NORMAL dogs don't break out of crates too easily though, especially under non stimulating circumstances.

I thought the DS was the standard, normal dog? Everything else is not normal, right?

oww, did I ever show you what my "panic-attack-visitor DS", Doenja, did to an aluminium crate?


15 min. more abd she would have been free....

Nice handiwork Marjolein!
That is why my best kennels are galvanized steel. Glad that I did not invest in the aluminum crate though. That would have p*ssed me off, to spend that much and still end up with a scrapped crate. Wow!

In the wire versus plastic debate ...

I had to switch Cino to a plastic crate because he wore down his canines (from the back of them) knawing on the wire. No more problems after moving him back to a 500

Man, I feel so blessed to have a DS that does not have these crate issues! Neither did my GSD, so I feel twice blessed! I think it would make me even more nuts than I already am<g>

leih merigian wrote:Man, I feel so blessed to have a DS that does not have these crate issues! Neither did my GSD, so I feel twice blessed! I think it would make me even more nuts than I already am<g>

me too! I'm still using that crate, it still looks like on the pic, it's Dingo's place now, he knows in there, it's just waiting time. No need to try and get out He just goes nuts vocally as soon as he hears a helper, but no chewing. I was pretty shocked to see that a dog could actually chew trought aluminium, I knew it's kind of a weak metal, but nice and light. Didn't think it would be this weak... The dog that did this is really small, weighs 23 kilo's (is that 66 pounds in U.S.??)

Marjolein,

23 Kilos is more like 50 pounds

icvanstra wrote:Marjolein,

23 Kilos is more like 50 pounds

ow, whaha, overhere a "pond" is half a kilo, that's why I figured right, 50 pounds