Dutch Shepherd Forum

I agree - I also miss John!!!

So here's a fun little addition to the convo. I was talking with a trainer tonight about dominant behaviors and he raised the great point that with certain dominant behaviors you could train it to such a level that it would seem dominant. Take for example in sports when you teach a pup to possess the sleeve. The idea is you want the dog to want the sleeve with everything in his being and once he gets said sleeve, doesn't want to let it go for anything (except your command). Some pups this idea is natural - "I take and it's mine and you can't have it". You reach for it and they turn their head/pull away/run off. Some pups you need to train this behavior as they're fine giving the sleeve back to anyone. Talking generally, if someone had trained a pup to possess the sleeve and the pup generalizes the behavior, then it would seem the pup had a dominant behavior, right? Same thing for proper exposure and training - the whole goal of these is to make the pup confident and sound, right? So if you're successful and the dog exhibits these behaviors, does that mean the dog now has dominant behavior? Or are these things you're looking for the natural and raw ability of the dog pre-training?

I personally think that in these specific dominant behaviors if a dog cannot be shaken by extreme measures than it possess these dominant behaviors naturally and would be more favorable. Think of the pups that walk into dark rooms with gun fire and things moving and don't even flinch or slow down, tails up and happy and body relaxed the entire time. The dogs that no matter WHAT you throw at them they don't even flinch and just continue on with confidence and calmness. Building up confidence is absolutely essential to any training program but my opinion is that if you have to build up a dominant behavior then eventually you'll see cracks in the behavior with enough stress (high level sport dogs who won't do certain things because it freaks them out, police k9s who suddenly refuse a bite, etc). Is this something I'm going to take a dog and test out? Not unless I'm breeding and want that specifically.

Does anyone want to throw in some posts about drives and how that can affect understandings of dominant behaviors versus true dominance? So like how defense drive can be mistaken for protective over space or how prey drive can make it seem like a dog is putting a smaller dog "in its place"?

excellent post and one that would really get the brain to turn to mush.

I kept thinking about Ring, The basket where you train the dog to protect the basket and NO ONE can take it unless the handler calls the dog off. Think of a time where you have something valuble and you set it down, you tell the dog to guard and you go off to the bathroom, someone tries to take said valuble, and the person leaves with out an arm.

Many dogs need different levels of training to get there, so would a dominant dog need less training, and a passive dog need more training to get to the point of a good basked guard?

Wold a dominant dog take the amount of training needed to get to that level ( its a crazy amount of training for the guard) and would a more passive, or less dominant dog crack earlier?

Would it be prey drive that has the dog put a smaller in its place or dominance? Both?

Thalie puts sadie in her place, but after this conversation, Thalie isnt dominant, she is just the queen.

How can phrase what I'm thinking...? There's what?--15 or so different types of aggression...so...should we first have to understand those before pointing to a behavior(s) as dominant or to a dog as a dominant dog...b/c...dominant behaviors can look like aggressive behavior (or would that be aggression can appear dominant behavior(s) or as a dominant dog?).

I haven't phrased it how it is in my head, so close enough will have to do.

I totally got your question. Good one too.

This may be a long one guys so watch out!

here's what?--15 or so different types of aggression...so...should we first have to understand those before pointing to a behavior(s) as dominant or to a dog as a dominant dog...b/c...dominant behaviors can look like aggressive behavior (or would that be aggression can appear dominant behavior(s) or as a dominant dog?).

Very good point! I'll list out what I am familiar with and anyone who has more to add or correct me please feel free to do so! There may be a lot of overlap on some types as knowing the cause of aggression is the most important aspect of this.

Aggression types (forgot to add this resource https://k9aggression.com/dog-aggression ... ggression/):
Handler aggression - aggression to handler. This type os aggression is seen if a handler tries to dominate (alpha roll, hang, or pin) a dog or overcorrect a dog. Also called "coming up the line" at the handler. This can also be seen when the handler is handling/moving the dog, if the handler is near toys/food/resources, or if the dog is woken by the handler.
Child aggression - the act of being aggressive to a child. This can be because the dog cannot escape unwanted attention from the child, the dog sees the child as prey (especially if moving fast, erratically, making high pitched noises), or the dog is unsure of it's new social "place" in its home.
Stranger aggression - aggression towards strangers from fear, territorial, or general aggression.
Dog aggression (DA) - there's many different aspects of DA, a lot of which can be misinterpreted. In general it is the act of going after or showing aggression to a dog, familiar or not. It can be due to fear, squabbles, or sorting out the "pecking order" in social situations.
Fear aggression - the fight part of flight or fight instinct. This is when a dog has failed in its attempts to escape a situation and is now attempting to "fight" its way out of it. This is commonly when you see shallow bites, growling, lips lifted, hackles up, etc.
Territorial aggression - the act of protecting an area the dog sees as "his". The dog perceives a threat and rushes to fend off the threat. Dogs barking at people on the street from their windows, bounding up the fences and barking, snarling at strangers in Petco if they get too close to "his" person. It's important to note that it's NOT what the human sees as "their" property but what the DOG see's as "his".
Redirection aggression - from frustration, dog retargets its aggression onto something nearby, like handler, other dog, child, leash, or toy.
General aggression - generally the cause of a health-related problem. Injured dogs, dogs in chronic pain, dogs with neurological problems, or dogs who are sick. Aggression is aimed at generally nearest animal or human, but can be more generalized depending on the problem.
Maternal aggression - a mother dog protecting her litter or a bitch protecting her toys/resources during a false pregnancy. Hormonal-based and can happen without warning signals. Disappears after litter is weened/hormones stabilize.
Possessive aggression - dog shows aggression when something of its is taken away. Commonly this is seen in toys, such as when the handler attempts to take the toy away the dog growls and will lash out if pushed.
Prey aggression - commonly seen as the “pause, stare down” in a dog. This can be directed towards small animals or children/bikes/cars if in movement (and only in movement). Can also be territorial, such as a dog who chases a person out of its yard but stops at the yard line. Prey aggression is seen as chasing object and biting it.
Food aggression - a dog who shows aggression to people/dogs around food. Does not have to be eating from bowl for this to happen as the presence of treats or other food-related things can trigger it. The higher the food value the more aggression seen.
Seizure aggression - triggered after a seizure, aggression is directed at anyone and anything. Is very aggressive and uncontrollable but calms down and acts like nothing happened. Can also happen pre-seizure and also be unpredictable in when it will strike.
Aggression from medication - medications can cause aggression, such as ones for treatment of pain and seizures, as well as corticosteroids.
Leash aggression - I’m a bit hesitant to list this one as it’s caused by an object/extension of fear aggression but I’ll put it here anyways. Dog is aggressive only on leash - no problems off leash. Can be because of restriction of movement, fear response, or territorial aggression.
Play aggression - aggression seen in play, includes growls and bites. Generally less threatening than all other forms of aggression previously listed, though changes can happen rapidly into a different form of aggression.

Many dogs need different levels of training to get there, so would a dominant dog need less training, and a passive dog need more training to get to the point of a good basked guard?

Depends on the dog but I think if the dog was more passive it would need more training than a truly dominant dog or even a dog with more talent for that dominant behavior (possession). Drives also play a bit into aggression and dominant behavior here, as do nerves. We’ve already qualified dogs with dominant behaviors and true dominance as very confident and solid in nerves. Aggression could also be seen as the “tail end” of a drive; meaning that that is the most obvious signal the dog is in drive (think when a dog starts barking while in prey drive and goes to snap at the “prey” - the barking and biting is technically prey aggression and is the most obvious sign we as humans see).

Would a dominant dog take the amount of training needed to get to that level ( its a crazy amount of training for the guard) and would a more passive, or less dominant dog crack earlier?

I think a dominant dog would take in essence less training, if the training was mainly building confidence and slowly applying more and more pressure rather than the OB act of staying on the object/control of not moving too far off it unless threatened. I also think you may encounter more frustration from a dominant dog who wants to “take care” of the decoy trying to take his object. Again, depends on the dog, it’s drives, and it’s natural “talent” for dominant behaviors.

Would it be prey drive that has the dog put a smaller in its place or dominance? Both?

Let’s look at it with two scenarios which I specifically changed the endings on.

Scenario 1 - small dog (SD) is zooming and yapping away in a dog park. Big dog (BD) comes in and t-bones the SD, to which the SD gets up and starts barking and jumping at the BD, pissed off. BD pins SD, to which SD snaps at BD, and BD bites SD.

Scenario 2 - SD rushes up to BD in a dog park. BD watches SD as SD starts growling at him and puffing up. BD snarls back, SD makes a move to the side and BD dives in and pins the dog. SD struggles, BD snarls, and SD stops moving and goes limp, giving whale eye and licking lips while trying to make itself smaller. BD gets off SD.

I would say Scenario 1 is an example of prey drive being confused as dominance, while Scenario 2 is an actual dominance display. It’s easy to see in scenario 2 BD could easily maul SD and it could be argued what started out as a social “disagreement” on social pecking order, which the dominant dog decided to assert its position, the BG was put into prey by the struggling SD. Or it was just DA (I would say this is more likely if BD immediately attacks SD upon aggressive display or approach). Again, the body language of the dogs can help tell a lot - a confident dog sees no need to further the aggression while and unconfident dog will most likely (exception being its working in prey which is instinctual). So while it could be both, I would hazard an educated guess that a truly dominant dog would be less likely to go into prey, but again, depends on the situation and which drive is stronger.

What you list as general aggression I know as pain aggression.

And this may warrant further research, but the med list under aggression from medication might be able to include sedatives, or certain sedatives; they can elevate aggression in some aggressive dogs.

What about animal aggression (AA)? Do you think the list is including that under Prey Aggression? It didn't seem like it, though, based on the description.

And this may warrant further research, but the med list under aggression from medication might be able to include sedatives, or certain sedatives; they can elevate aggression in some aggressive dogs.

Very true. Any drug that lowers impulse control will also - which is probably the ones you just named!

What about animal aggression (AA)? Do you think the list is including that under Prey Aggression? It didn't seem like it, though, based on the description.

I tend to think most animal aggression as an object of prey aggression, territorial aggression, or fear aggression. In certain cases where drive is involved I see it as defense/fearful defense. However I also have not seen a lot of dogs that respond to animals that have not been in one of these states, so I could just not have enough experience in it.

An example of this would be a video I saw recently of a dog and a bear. Dog was very unsure of bear but didn't want it near owner. Bear would advance and dog would charge it. Key point here is dog would then back off. Overall it didn't look super confident once it was in close range of bear. It did this several times before two other bears came over the ridge and one bear charged dog after it charged them. One could argue that the act of lunging towards the bear was prey aggression, prey drive, territorial drive, or even defense drive. However, the fact that the dog could not stay in drive, kept removing itself from danger, and never committed to a very obvious act of aggression, I would call it fearful defense drive - dog was scared enough to try to fight but was also scared enough not to commit to a fight.

In instances where a dog goes after, let's say a cow, I still tend to see it as an extension of prey/territorial/fear UNLESS there is obvious malicious intent. Meaning dog doesn't seem freaked out by cow, not bothered by cow near/on/in its property, and cow isn't making any obvious sounds/movement that interest the dog as prey. This would be more of the "looks at cow and suddenly decides, hey, taking a bite out of that thing would be fun" and does so. Then I would be tempted to call it animal aggression.

But I know you had a lot of experience with animal aggression in Thor, right? So in your experience how do you see animal aggression manifest/look like?

Well, based on what I've seen with moving animals, I see his charges as prey driven: he goes straight for the kill. No hesitation, start to finish, clean kill. Once dead, he's calm, walks away. (The calmness afterward is pretty freaky. Have you seen this?) He's couldn't care less about a dead animal, whether he killed it or happened upon one.

In the bear scenario, my GUESS would be he'd charge without hesitation the same (even without me there), and any advance or non-fatal swipe from a bear would amp him more--just educated guesses on my part, but guesses nonetheless.

But I had a different vision of the cow--maybe b/c cows don't MOVE, or move much, on their own accord. He definitely would advance, but if the cow didn't move...I don't THINK he'd attack it. I can see him instigating, though. Muzzle-punch it or take a few nips and stand there for a reaction. I kind of have a reason for saying this, though it wasn't the size of a cow or even alive; it was part of particular/controlled training scenarios I used to orchestrate in the house and outside when first working on impulse control.

Based on most lists that break down aggression, Thor has several--at least from my understanding of the descriptions and of him. I don't recall Chistie saying anything in particular on this issue about him, except to say he was "just a very tough dog," but that statement was about him overall.

Out in the real every day world, of course, it's all seen as "he's an aggressive dog"--no reason for the world to make a distinction. That's my job, so I have to, and hope I've been accurate in assessing him and training him based those assessments.

ummmmm by brain is oozing out my ears

Yup. I don't particularly like looking at behavior through the "aggression" only lens as I feel it leaves out a lot of the why or puts emphasis on the wrong part of the behavior as a whole. I feel like most of the time people see aggression as a cause and effect behavior - you walk towards momma dogs litter and she snaps, you try to take something away from a possessive dog he snaps… But there’s more to it when you start looking at things like prey aggression (just because a dog chases something doesn’t mean it’ll bite) or territorial aggression (just because a dog barks at a window doesn’t mean you get the same show if you get inside the house). Looking at aggression we stress the cause of the response but forget the response could something like instinct (chase prey and catch it) or frustration (chase the flirt pole on a back tie to build frustration and want).

So here's why I start tattling off about drives - from the list I just wrote out I feel that "aggression" isn't the right terminology for some of the behavior listed. Chasing after a bike to me isn't aggression, it's response to a stimuli. Drive theory can explain a lot more than just the "aggression" behavior we see at the end of the reaction. I use the term drive as the innate ability to react to a stimuli - meaning the dog is MOTIVATED to obtain something, whether physical or emotional (in the case of getting rid of a threat in defense). It can be predetermined to a degree by genetics, influenced by early exposure, and built from there or diminished to a degree, but never truly killed or permanently lowered.

Prey drive - the motivation to chase after a moving target.
Food drive- the motivation to obtain food.
Toy drive - the motivation to obtain a toy. Also called ball drive or stick drive or tug drive (though the actual act of playing tug I would classify more as play drive).
Play drive* - an expanded toy drive. The motivation to engage with handler/other dogs in play. Think of a dog who’s reward is throwing the ball and bringing it back, or playing tug. The object being used is less important to the dog than the action of “playing” with it.
Hunt drive - the motivation to find something.
Fight drive** - the motivation to fight. In hog hunting some people call it “gameness”.
Defense drive- the motivation to defend itself or something it possesses. Usually brought out with pressure from decoy/environment. I like to think of it as the fight part of “fight or flight”.

*some people do not specifically use play drive but include it under toy drive or prey drive.
** This is a highly argued about and mis-used term. The person who coined it says it basically applies to dogs who fight to fight and not over of resources. Could be linked to dominance in some cases, as well as aggression, but the motivating factor for the dog is the actual fight and not the end result or beginning trigger. It likes to fight so it fights.

To me, drive is the motivation behind a host of behaviors, and aggression is the end result. Aggression is very simply a “this happened because” factor; it’s a response to removal a stimulus. Such as snapping in fear, frustration, protectiveness, or anger. Drive helps build frustration - else why be frustrated if you don't want the thing so badly?

You can train in drive, pull a dog through fear through drive, create a trigger in drive, and also reward in drive. Drives can also switch fluidly like a manual car. Take a dog hunting for a rabbit. It scents the rabbit and starts working in hunt drive, then when the rabbit moves it goes into prey drive. When it catches it, some say it goes in and out of defense drive very quickly - the choice to either take the prey or back away. I say this could apply for bigger game but for smaller game I think the end result is a frustration response (I’ve been chasing you and cant’ catch you) response, also called prey aggression (the bite and shake to kill it). In this way, the dog doesn’t need to eat the dead animal but has satisfied its urges and motivation.

So in that case Sharon I could see Thor’s calmness after a kill as just the frustration of the chase of prey being finished. He got what he wanted now it’s done. I could also see it as a territorial response with a bit of defense drive - protect my territory and kill the intruder. Although honestly that’s a difference of body language, bark, and "look" during reaction, and knowing your dog. Just my thoughts.

EDIT: I don't want it to seem like I think aggression is solely a cause and effect behavior or something only seen at the end of a drive, as there is a lot of grey area and overlap, but for the purposes of this discussion I think it's a better way to phrase it. Sports are a great example of tapping into drives to get sustained and (you could say) "learned" aggression behaviors/aggression.

Dutchringgirl wrote:ummmmm by brain is oozing out my ears

Ditto that....