Dutch Shepherd Forum

You dog will get hurt doing that. That is called bad handling and you're teaching him zero control in doing this.

There's a huge difference here to be noted - this is old school training. Many "k9" trainers still implement it. Depending on the dog this can be effective training method. I have seen very few hard enough dogs be able to excel in this type of training. Except in this day of lawsuits it also creates a chaotic and imperfect bite, which opens you up for larger liability. Police K9s are trained for calm, deep, pushing bites without shake, without pulling, without hectic movement. They are taught to counter by pushing in and down. They are taught through work, winning, and lengthening the time and amount of stress, and like Lisa mentioned above, they will win by holding on. They are not constantly pushed because eventually an animal will give in and stop fighting. By constantly pushing them you are working in defense and that is a dangerous drive to have a dog default into when biting. They need to be clear headed when deployed or else it's a liability. Training to hold on while in a fight is a different kind of training that is taken with clear and precise steps, not constantly forcing the dog into defense and "fight or you die" type beatings. Pressure is applied slowly and the dog always wins. The dog begins to learn to channel defensive drive, to open it up and win because he is successful, then come out of it. He learns how to effectively use it, not default to it. Every now and then they will really test the dog, but constantly training by apply a lot of pressure if the dog cannot handle it is how you create a liability. The kind of "pissed off" described is also called "fear aggression". I've seen dogs trained this way be euthanized later because of the damage caused.

A properly trained police K9 and PPD will hang into the fight because of their training and nerves. It is genetic and built through training. It is not conditioned through abuse and pushing the dog to the verge of shut down.

Mark77 wrote:

Dutchringgirl wrote:Maybe Ive been out and things changed or I didnt see that, but when I trained we didnt push the dog to quit. We pushed them to bite harder and if it got to the point where we saw them starting to back off, we backed off first so they would not loose the drive

My trainer also trained police dogs. Maybe I didnt see that part of the training.

Runs out of line and does a back flip? What are you doing to get this? What are you training him to do?

The dog jumps off the ground trying to connect the bite but because he's tethered, he runs out of line which causes his momentum to sweep his legs forward and his body slams on the ground. I think it is to train him to not lose control of his body without his feet touching the ground. The other dogs in the class don't seem to get airborn and I think maybe it's discouraged. I'm afraid he's going to break a leg or rib so I'm hoping he figures out soon not to just jump with all his body off the ground.

Runs out of line? Again, I may have missed something but we never did this in our training. We would have them go to the end of the line, bark and hold the sleeve right out of reach for a bit to wind them up but then give them the bite. I dont know, I would never do that to my dog, I would find another way to train then. We never did anything like that nor would I allow it done to mine.

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:You dog will get hurt doing that. That is called bad handling and you're teaching him zero control in doing this.

There's a huge difference here to be noted - this is old school training. Many "k9" trainers still implement it. Depending on the dog this can be effective training method. I have seen very few hard enough dogs be able to excel in this type of training. Except in this day of lawsuits it also creates a chaotic and imperfect bite, which opens you up for larger liability. Police K9s are trained for calm, deep, pushing bites without shake, without pulling, without hectic movement. They are taught to counter by pushing in and down. They are taught through work, winning, and lengthening the time and amount of stress, and like Lisa mentioned above, they will win by holding on. They are not constantly pushed because eventually an animal will give in and stop fighting. By constantly pushing them you are working in defense and that is a dangerous drive to have a dog default into when biting. They need to be clear headed when deployed or else it's a liability. Training to hold on while in a fight is a different kind of training that is taken with clear and precise steps, not constantly forcing the dog into defense and "fight or you die" type beatings. Pressure is applied slowly and the dog always wins. The dog begins to learn to channel defensive drive, to open it up and win because he is successful, then come out of it. He learns how to effectively use it, not default to it. Every now and then they will really test the dog, but constantly training by apply a lot of pressure if the dog cannot handle it is how you create a liability. The kind of "pissed off" described is also called "fear aggression". I've seen dogs trained this way be euthanized later because of the damage caused.

A properly trained police K9 and PPD will hang into the fight because of their training and nerves. It is genetic and built through training. It is not conditioned through abuse and pushing the dog to the verge of shut down.

Well the trainer trains PSA dogs and police K9's the exact same way. The dog always wins but he gets them pretty amped up. I think the point of tethering is to teach the dog control first. I'll talk to him to see what our goals are for the dog.

I also think its good to look at what you, as the dogs owner want from the dog. Humans put their needs first and not the animal, and tethering to the point of possible injury, mental or physical, to me is not worth the end result of the animal. Police training or law work is an exception, and Like I said, my ring trainer also trained police dogs and we never did this.

I only went to Ring II because beyond that, the training was severe to get the dog to perform, and for what? a trials championship? Not worth the dogs hurt and pain for a ribbon for me.

Please look at why you are training with someone who uses this approach, if you do not want your dog hurt, then take a stand and either look for a new trainer, or tell them that this is not how you want the work done, It is your dog, not theirs. If their ego gets in the way and they get mad, id walk.

Just my 2c

Everything worked out well tonight. It was just build the drive up to see what he could do without handler influence. The dog was having fun tonight for sure.