Handling DS vs. GSDs?

[Christie M]

To add to Leih and Falon's comments - I think all too often "dominance" is confused with fear. Down is a very vulnerable position (I'll go into the Alpha stuff in another post). Couple that with the fact that dogs have a natural opposition reflex (you apply pressure and their INSTINCT is to push against it). So if you have taught down with rewards, then worked on pulling their feet out from under them or pushing to the ground - or even applying leash pressure, it is natural for a dog to fight against it. Truly they do feel like they are trapped or being forced to the ground - often resulting in a dog showing defensive or fear aggression when they otherwise wouldn't have.

I would go back to some of the teaching stages, but also pair mild leash pressure with the verbal cue and the lure into position. I have never met the dog that had to have its legs positioned into the down - although that is a very traditional way of reinforcing it. Once I know that everything is crystal clear in the dogs mind, then by pairing the leash pressure I have taught the dog how to respond to a correction if I need to give one. All the while, I am avoiding putting the dog into a situation where it feels trapped or cornered by me, the owner.

[Dutchringgirl]

i also agree... I never forces Sadie, she has a high food drive, she knows i have a treat and the butt hits the floor. When I taught her i raised my hand so the butt went down, then I marked it with a YES. Then I added the sit command. I also agree on the Respect, I have never seen Thalie push sadie to do something, I observe them in how they work with each other as a pack and when Sadie dosnt respect Thalie, Thalie will let her know by a growl or she puts her mouth over Sadie's mouth. So we shouldnt force the dog either.

[vneerland]

Judith makes a great point about lines. However, and this is just an assumption, that not even all reputable/responsible breeders take the measures that Judtith does to produce quality working dogs...and if the majority of DSs don't have those good lines solidly behind them, then aren't we talking about more of the population of DSs out there than not? If so, then is the higher population of DSs more likely to be reactive in the manner of these discussions?

So, if this hasn't been an issue in a long time...can anything be said, percentage-wise, for a DS reacting differently than others when placed in new environments with different handlers?

Sharon,
I don't think that handler issues are only restricted to bloodlines, but it certaily plays a part.
Yes, most DS's, regardless of bloodline, are intelligent enough to know an unfair correction when they receive one. Since many of our dogs have been bred for work, many also have the personality to stand up for themselves. The sweetest of my dogs will still not allow you to abuse her. Some other breeds would never in a million years offer to argue with their handlers, no matter what. I currently have a husky, traveling through, so to speak, who does not have it in her to argue her point. Lovely quality for a pet. Not quite what you will find in a dog who(s ancestors) has(ve) been bred to be assertive to people, sheep, wolves, what have you.
With all that being said: Most of my own dogs disagree with me from time to time, but we fortunately do not take many trips to the emergency room. (for either dog or myself) If all goes well, and there is a good balance between praise and corrections in the dogs life, if the dog understands what it is being punished for, the chance of overly heated arguments between a handler and a stable dog are not great. Be fair. Just treat your dog with respect, while maintaining your role as leader. I have seen many situations where things did go wrong, yes. And for some lines, defensive behavior is much closer to the surface than for other lines. And those dogs could certainly always cross our paths. But in general, even for those dogs, you can make a point and stay in charge, without bloodshed. Granted: not always easy with a hand me down that has learned that certain negative behavior actually gets them what they want. A good example would be a littermate to one of my favorite dogs. I got the good dog as a pup and he became a wonderful friend and working K9 for a big department. The evil twin was raised in a loving home, got away with bad behavior, and learned that you can argue (bite) your way out of just about anything if you don't feel like complying. He never really changed. Still a solid and brave dog underneath the bravado, but with unreperable damage in the upbringing. While he did become a better version of himself with time and patience, he never caught up to the better twin, who was not given the chance to stray from the right path. But the same goes for people, correct? Do any of us get born with jailtime in our future, or do the formative years and the actions of those around us cement part of our destiny?

I do agree, regarding your next post, that dominance is not always paired with aggression, but more often than not with respect. That is, however, gained with the willingness to back up claims of dominance.

I'm concerned that she doesn't truly see me as the pack leader, but how do I do that without "being eaten"? I've been doing attention exercises for eye contact, but she is way better at giving me eye contact when she wants something from me then when I want something from her. And I'm concerned that when she gives it to me, its only to get the treat or toy, therefore not really respecting ME. So what now?

Sue, do you remember the little banter about taking away the Iphone?
You were saying that you did not want to correct too hard when she was not paying attention to you and I said that a correction that is ignored, can therefore not be considered an adequate correction. Do not set your limits in your head, but be strong in the dogs eyes. You will probably not like to hear me say that I forsee trouble in your and sugars future if you cannot accept that you have a dog that has more drive than you are probably used to dealing with. Nobody is suggesting that you become mean, but you cannot afford to ask a PUP for compliance a couple of times because you are afraid of a nip? There are things you can do when you get nipped. Ask yourself what another dominant dog would do at such infraction. They would swiftly dish out punishment until the pup never considered doing it again. The bites will get more serious if you don't get yourself on the next page now. I hope you can see the comment as constructive criticism from someone who knows that problems will lay ahead if you don't take charge of your relationship now. If there are good puppy classes in your neighborhood, you would probably benefit from those a great deal.

[Kristie E]

wow Judith, an excellent reply and everything that has rumbled around in my head but could not get out as a readable version. Thank you for saying it so well.

[Sugars Mom]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! I need to remember patience, and not ask her twice to do something. I know this, so shame on me...and I'm back on track with that. Thanks for the reminder!!

I agree that it is important that if I tell her something, she needs to follow through and do it, and that I shouldn't "ask" her, it needs to be an expectation. I also need to not be lax on my expectations, as well as be very clear with her on what those are. She is so smart and picks things up so fast if I'm clear about it, consistent, and rewarding with treats is very effective to reinforce or establish what it is I'm wanting her to do. Very good point about paying close attention to if she REALLY KNOWS the command or not when she isn't doing what I want. I think that that has been part of it for us, and I'm concentrating on making sure I work more with her on the things that she isn't completely clear on.

As I've been focusing on these things, and paying attention to my approach with her, I know it is huge with how she reacts, (like the pulling her down to get her to lay down and her resisting and how doing it differently will get what I want without the resistance). The thing is I know these things but for some reason I "forget" at times, and so again, thanks so much for getting me back on track with maintaining the consistency and clear expectations, 'cause it works!

She is such a good dog and so sweet and so smart. I'm very proud of her! She does so many things so well. It's been me, not her when I look back on things about anything she hasn't gotten down pat. And when distractions get her attention, we are continuing to work on that, with noticeable improvements. I use cheese when doing recalls outside, and its amazing how fast she will run to me, sit and look at me with those sweet earnest eyes!!

And just to mention, I've never been afraid of her, and I wouldn't call it nipping at me, (correct me if I'm wrong) but she will put her mouth on me, no pressure, and my point with the questions was more about wanting to be proactive and not allow that to escalate after reading about others claiming their DS would eat someone. Example, brushing her fur. She doesn't like being brushed all that much and sometimes she will reach her head back to my hand and put her mouth on my hand. No pressure, but she is telling me she doesn't like it, or is unsure about it, so I go slow and when she is relaxed and that helps, but non the less, the mouthing happens sometimes. Would it escalate? Probably if I didn't respond to her letting me know she has a problem to it. But I find a way that I can brush her without it bothering her, so ends up being a win-win. But I would bet that if I instead "forced" her to be brushed, she would escalate. Again, my thoughts were more about if that is something that could happen to someone, anyone, working with her, I was curious about hearing others experiences.

She will however, mouth with the kids when they play, in fun and excitement, and we're working on stopping that - but its hard 'casue the boys think its fun and encourage it somewhat. Or at least they certainly aren't consistent about discouraging it.

Thanks for listening!!

[Marjolein]

Example, brushing her fur. She doesn't like being brushed all that much and sometimes she will reach her head back to my hand and put her mouth on my hand. No pressure, but she is telling me she doesn't like it, or is unsure about it, so I go slow and when she is relaxed and that helps, but non the less, the mouthing happens sometimes. Would it escalate? Probably if I didn't respond to her letting me know she has a problem to it. But I find a way that I can brush her without it bothering her, so ends up being a win-win.

It is hard to say something about behaviour over the net... but from just reading this I'm thinking, this is a win...one way...and not your way The holding your hand in her mouth...what does momma-dog do to a pup if something isn't allowed? She could be correcting you... "do NOT brush me like that" you go with the other approach=she wins.

But I would bet that if I instead "forced" her to be brushed, she would escalate.

Since you already now this, you can be totally prepared, and win! I found out the hard way that working around the problem is gonna leave you with a much bigger problem in the end... better to be clear form the start, while they are still small enough to be outsmarted

Ow, and I did learn a lot from listening to Judith (hate to admit it) she's right a lot... in dog-stuff anyways

[Kristie E]

This reminds me of one night when I was trying to clip her toenails. She did not want me to do it... I had her paw she jumped on the couch... I did not let go.. she jumped on the floor and my hand ended up in her mouth. ... It was all over, I can't really say what happened but we ended up in a heap on the floor and I had her paw in my hand and she was laying there very calmly. We had THAT discussion, there was no beating ass kicking or forcing to the ground but she ended up laying down for me. since then there has been no fuss and no muss, just clipping of the nails matter of fact all business.

Lonnie would lick my arm when I was doing something he would rather not have me do but he never took my hand or arm in his mouth. I understood that he did not want me to do whatever and I told him that it was necessary and required. He was a great dog I miss him.

[Raven]

In regard to her mouthing you (not BITING) and her mouthing you when you try to brush her, the kids, etc....I've posted before about this, but I'll act like a Top-40 radio station by playing one of my favorite songs over and over: strengthen the "leave it." (An option.) It can work on many levels. It's been a great tool for my present beast, who was a bad mouther and somewhat of a wild man.

I'll give one quick example to the point in this post (although there's more I've posted in the way of examples of this):

E.g: To look at his teeth. I don't have a real reason to look (and what the heck would I necessarily be looking for?), but as part of the process, I want non-confrontational access to them--if for no other reason than I "want to" (can also help at the vets). So, it started with: "Show me your teeth" and me "going in," so to speak. He wanted to fall back on mouthing, but didn't, yet he wasn't too keen on the whole thing. "Leave it." Okay, mom. I'm not saying that I could go in to file a molar (well, that's rabbits and horses and such), but when I say, "Show me your teeth," he assumes the position and lets me uselessly rummage around.

The "leave it" was already developed/established with many other things. The boy gets it and I shamelessly use it. (Are you working with her paws? Handling them to the point that she will offer them for cleaning and such without fuss? And her ears?)

[Sugars Mom]

I handle her feet all the time, and she has no problem with that, but she does not enjoy her nails clipped. Last time I did them, when she tried to pull her foot away I stayed calm, was firm and persistent and got them all clipped. I was thinking that next time I would use treats as a reward for when she doesn't pull away and see how that goes.

With the brushing of her fur, is she trying to correct me? Hmmm...I guess maybe she is, but I still brush her and I do let her know she is not to put her head back to my hand by telling her to leave it, and I get it done, and everytime I brush her there is less and less of her doing it from the last time, so I think I'm winning

[Marjolein]

on "mouthing" (the soft version of biting...)

[Kristie E]

Aww, it looks like Gwen and Izar playing... he eats her head and neck and she bites his jowls.... I figured that is what the extra skin is for...she also bites his legs... and they sound so ferocious... RAHHHHH

[vneerland]

on "mouthing"

Good illustration! The dominant dog is the one doing the holding. Submissive dog does not have the right to touch a higher ranking one in that manner. The most they are allowed to do (and not always willingly on the recipients end) is to lick (mostly corners of the dominant dogs mouth)

[Dutchringgirl]

thats what Thalie does to Sadie too, she will keep doing it untill Sadie stops doing what bothers her, usually one or two times

[Dutchringgirl]

Aww, it looks like Gwen and Izar playing... he eats her head and neck and she bites his jowls.... I figured that is what the extra skin is for...she also bites his legs... and they sound so ferocious... RAHHHHH

Thalie and Sadie do this all day too, Thalie will be standing there and Sadie is chewing on a leg.

[Christie M]

on "mouthing" (the soft version of biting...)

Hey Marjolein,

Can I borrow this photo? I teach a class at the local hospital for expectant parents. I am always trying to describe a dog's version of a fair correction. That picture illustrates it perfectly!! I am pretty sure I could use it in a DOZEN different ways!

[Dutchringgirl]

on "mouthing" (the soft version of biting...)

Hey Marjolein,

Can I borrow this photo? I teach a class at the local hospital for expectant parents. I am always trying to describe a dog's version of a fair correction. That picture illustrates it perfectly!! I am pretty sure I could use it in a DOZEN different ways!

I tried using this technique on my kids but I cant quite crab their noses

[GSDNanny]

There are many posts here and elsewhere that state, "you just can't handle a DS the way you handle a GSD...watch out if you do," followed by rather vague claims that so-and-so or such-and-such experienced K9 handler learned this the hard way.

Let's hear some very specific examples. I think this would be educational for those such as myself who have switched from GSDs to DS, and also, for those who are exploring that change and seeking information.

So, if you have direct experience with this kind of thing, please talk about it. How did someone mishandle a DS (what was the situation, how was the dog handled, why did it go wrong?), and how would you handle a DS in the same situation? How do you handle your DS in general, when it comes to corrections or stopping unwanted behavior without triggering a tantrum, and how do you handle a DS when a tantrum ensues, regardless?

I have been keeping up with this thread and find it quite interesting as dog/animal behavior is so intriguing to me. In response to the switch from GSD to DS, I'd like to inject my worth. I know that I am repeating myself to those long time forum members, but having had close to 200 rescue GSDs (as well as my own) through my home over the past 15 years, I have had the chance to experience a huge huge spectrum of GSD temperaments, etc. Plus the fact that I have had my own GSDs for nearly 50 years. On the otherhand, I have only had four DSs through here in the past 6 years. I totally agree with Judith that each and every one, both GSD and DS, have their own personality, temperament, etc. Granted specific lines exhibit certain characteristics in those aspects as well. There were times during those rescue years that I could see certain GSDs anywhere across the south and state who the breeder was. Now with the DSs, three of which were rescues, they too exhibited different temperament, etc. What I do find different is the drive threshold. Let me give an example.

My DS is quiet, alert, sharp and dominant but not really confident, somewhat nervy. Until....until her prey/hunt drives kick in and then she reaches a point of no return, quickly, as in flipping a switch. At this point of no return, if I or anyone else intervenes inappropriately, she does not differentiate between her prey source and anything or anyone that gets in the way. I have to be very careful to watch for the signs, the perimeter of that threshold, and unless I am feeling self-destructive then I need to circumvent this before it escalates. She is a freak when it comes to frisbees, particularly soft cloth ones. She will KILL for one, seriously. When it comes to correction, we established those guidelines very early on. She is very sensitive but not defiant or defensive and will take proper correction because I dont initiate correction unless it is clear and quick and fair. No asking, no begging, no questions asked. Done, end of story, period.

Now, one of my GSDs is just as intense as she is when it comes to prey/hunt drives and possessiveness. His obsession (and that it is putting it lightly) is plastic, pvc type, buckets, etc. He too has a quick switch and threshold but I can more easily contain it. He is probably the most intense of any of the GSDs that I have had. He will work all day and come back for more.

With both dogs I have learned the 'edge' of each of their limits before we go to that place of no return. And as Judith stated, there is a defensive issue but I personally do not let it get to that point. I am sure if handled wrongly, both of these dogs would quickly go defensive on me and there would definitely be bloodshed. I just control that and have never pushed them that far because I dont want it to become a test for both of us.

As Marj said, its best to start early when they are small while you can still outsmart them. Make it ALL clear from the start, no questions asked. As Sue stated, do not ask, just expect. Do not be ignored; require respect. My mantra too is, 'behavior not rewarded is not likely to be repeated.' That emphasis is on bad behavior. I love it when people come to me with a dog behavior issue and when I tell them that what they are doing is rewarding that behavior, it baffles them. And especially when I tell them that the dog has them trained quite well!!!

[Sugars Mom]

That's a great pic of the dog's natural correction!

Just an update on what happened last night. I decided to brush her fur, and realized that what she does is reach back to put her mouth on the brush not my hand (don't know if that makes any difference). I was remembering it wrong when I posted before). She only did it twice last night and I see improvements every time I brush her. Then I did the nail clipping. First one in and I clipped too far. Just a little tiny bit of blood but I felt soooo bad. I knew I had to keep going and not end on that note, so I did. She would keep squealing and try to pull her hand away whenever the clipper got close to her foot, poor thing, but I knew her squeal wasn't from actual hurt, and I persisted. It took a while as she was trying to squirm away, and she would lick at my hand as it came close to her foot, but we got through it and the last couple she let me, I guess she realized she could trust me. I hope I never clip to far again!!

[Dutchringgirl]

every once in a while I get one of Thalies nails, I wrap it up and she is fine, I still feel soooo bad though. Sadie would mouth me too and I would watch her tail. Sometimes she would just put her mouth around my arm and not put any pressure on it, I wouldnt do anything and she would then just take it off. When I scratch her belly she will put her teeth on my hand like biting but she is still playing and mouthy, I just tell her to stop and she does. When she bites the brush does she seem annoyed or is it playful? How is her skin, Is she dry, maybe she is itchy and the brushing makes her itch more? With the nails, I would just hold her paw and not give it back, and do small trimmings often. Sometimes she just puts her mouth on my hand but i ignore her.

[leih merigian]

With both dogs I have learned the 'edge' of each of their limits before we go to that place of no return. And as Judith stated, there is a defensive issue but I personally do not let it get to that point. I am sure if handled wrongly, both of these dogs would quickly go defensive on me and there would definitely be bloodshed. I just control that and have never pushed them that far because I dont want it to become a test for both of us.

Your whole post was very interesting and informative.

I'd love to hear a description of what "handled wrongly" would mean, exactly, with these two dogs. I figure you mean when they're firmly in their intense prey drive mode...what would constitute wrong handling for them? And, how would they react to it?

My GSD was very prey driven, but I never had any issues at all with her as far as any defensive reactions. My DS puppy is a bit more similar to yours, in that she lacks some confidence, but it sure doesn't show when she's in drive.

Thanks for adding to this discussion, Denise! I am still trying to figure out the difference between owing a DS vs a GSD, even tho both of the dogs in my own case were or are very high drive, but with very different temperaments.

I will always remember from some dog book I read that there are more differences between individuals within the same breed than between different breeds. Makes a lot of sense. Still, I know there are breed tendencies...