Dutch Shepherd Forum

Harnesses are for pulling. As Christie mentioned in another post regarding trying to push or pull, it creates a reaction to move in the opposite direction against what you are trying to achieve. A harness is a bad set up for the owner if your goal is to stop pulling. A trainer actually suggested we use it on young Izar to stop him from pulling.. I almost died since he was approach 80lbs... I asked her what kind of dogs she had and she had yorkie poos?

Kristie Elliott wrote:Harnesses are for pulling. As Christie mentioned in another post regarding trying to push or pull, it creates a reaction to move in the opposite direction against what you are trying to achieve. A harness is a bad set up for the owner if your goal is to stop pulling. A trainer actually suggested we use it on young Izar to stop him from pulling.. I almost died since he was approach 80lbs... I asked her what kind of dogs she had and she had yorkie poos?

Please do tell this in Holland... here everyone thinks Julius-K( harnesses are "hot" and stop pulling

I train and work with horses... I learned very quickly what not to do with a 2000lb horse. (I have a draft cross, had him since he was a baby). I absolutely did not want him to learn he could pull at least not until I wanted him to. we are just now learning how to pull a sled... I figured that maybe some of the stuff I was doing applied to dogs too. hmm think about it, sled dogs, pulling, harness,.... hmmmmm go figure.

Kristie Elliott wrote:I train and work with horses... I learned very quickly what not to do with a 2000lb horse. (I have a draft cross, had him since he was a baby). I absolutely did not want him to learn he could pull at least not until I wanted him to. we are just now learning how to pull a sled... I figured that maybe some of the stuff I was doing applied to dogs too. hmm think about it, sled dogs, pulling, harness,.... hmmmmm go figure.

LOL - I have trained dogs for over 10 years (just a baby in comparison) and then we got horses and I thought I would be SO savvy....

After landing on my arse multiple times (and those being the most comfortable landings....), I learned that a dog trainer does not equate to a horse trainer The black and blue parts of my body are almost nil since I came to that conclusion - jerk of a quarter horse....

Christie M wrote:

Kristie Elliott wrote:I train and work with horses... I learned very quickly what not to do with a 2000lb horse. (I have a draft cross, had him since he was a baby). I absolutely did not want him to learn he could pull at least not until I wanted him to. we are just now learning how to pull a sled... I figured that maybe some of the stuff I was doing applied to dogs too. hmm think about it, sled dogs, pulling, harness,.... hmmmmm go figure.

LOL - I have trained dogs for over 10 years (just a baby in comparison) and then we got horses and I thought I would be SO savvy....

After landing on my arse multiple times (and those being the most comfortable landings....), I learned that a dog trainer does not equate to a horse trainer The black and blue parts of my body are almost nil since I came to that conclusion - jerk of a quarter horse....

LOL oh yeah!! gotta love those soft landings!!! At least the dogs and horses get along. Sometimes I think they are in collusion and plan stuff. All that whispering and stuff going on when you are not looking. ... :dswink" You gotta watch out for those jerks, they sucker you in every time.

Just thought I would say I got around to getting a prong collar on thursday. And it has made a world of difference. He pulls much less often, barely at all when he does, and tends to just look at squirrels and instead of chasing them now. I also don't have to yank to issue a correction.

I think I've realized people who think they are inhumane are generally ignorant and base their opinion solely off it's harsh looks. I know for a fact that on either a slip lead or flat collar he spent most of the walk trying to choke himself unconcious, and corrections had to be at the level of jerking him to register. Now he seems peaceful (but still excited to go for a walk) and rarely needs to be corrected at all.

Prongs are misunderstood and misused and can cause injury (and as a result of misuse, additional problems), but with the correct placement and proper use, they can be an effective tool, as you now know first-hand...with "tool" being the operative word.

I'm sure that you found Brutus' reaction a great relief. I can hear almost the breath that you released....

He sounds like he was pretty good-to-go, in general, when you adopted him. Makes your learning curve--and his--a lot easier. I'm glad for you both.

Just want to inject my two-cents on something--and I may be the only one with this view. It's about rawhide.

Years ago, I had a dog who got a chunk caught in his throat. Ended up okay, but whew! (He was a swallower, anyway; at a BBQ he snatched a section of corn on the cob--emergency visit!)

So, it's certainly a knee-jerk reacton on my part, but I don't buy rawhides. I'd say to only give them if you present and monitoring, but again, that's an old reaction speaking.

And just to put it out there, while I allow toys that can get stuffed with treats, I don't put treats inside. A vacuum can get created that traps the tongue. (This isn't intended for you, Nick; I'm just adding another personal quirk here.)

Congrats to you and Brutus. (If that's not his name, please forgive me. My staff don't always get called by their rightful names. It's not disrespect...it's the old Bill Cosby skit kind of thing where the mother spats out names until she hits upon the right one.)

Is the boy responding equally well to your wife? Does she work with him, too? Two people being on the same page can make things easier, that's for sure. But he sounds pretty easy going...so yea!

Raven wrote: And just to put it out there, while I allow toys that can get stuffed with treats, I don't put treats inside. A vacuum can get created that traps the tongue. (This isn't intended for you, Nick; I'm just adding another personal quirk here.)

That is very true of toys that don't have a vent hole on them. This was a case that was put out all over the internet a few years ago: http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/pimpleball.asp

The kong, squirrel dude...etc are all very safe. And in my case, VERY effective for keeping the rescues busy while I entertain/train my kids - and keeping my kids out of my hair while I tend to the rescues.

Just my but I have assisted a vet friend on several occasions with dogs coming in who have ingested either rope pieces or stuffing from dollar store type dog toys. Surgery was necessary on all accounts. Some didnt make it. From what I understand most of these toys are made in China and are not regulated, go figure. The stuffing is evidently toxic in the stuffed toys. I would think that if anyone wants to purchase stuffed toys to go to the children's department because I would "assume" that those would have fed guideline restrictions.

Hmmm, I was afraid to give Sugar kids toys as I figured the dog toys would be safer if she ripped one apart and got to the stuffing before me...so thanks!!

trick update. In addition to the normal sit, down, stay, come, leave it, stand (kinda) and drop it (with balls at least) I've managed to get a few more "tricks" from him vice the more traditional obedience there. Shake, hug, high five (most of the time) and starting to come along with roll over (he gets to his side and sometimes I have to assist him to the other side. Rarely does he make it all the way around ).

I've got his stay's and comes with me going out of sight and walking away with my back to him, and sitting while running towards me before reaching me. Haven't quite made that happen with down yet though. He is very smart and catches on quickly. I think he tries to predict patterns too much though, because he will now try to offer me a paw most times he sits and I am holding food . I like to keep it random though, so he has to think.

Also, definitely a great guard dog. When people knock at the door he is there in a flash, barking at them through the window in the door. He looks quite terrifying while he's at it too. He also barked at my wife when she came home friday. She is stationed away from me and is only home on the weekend (so he hadn't seen her since the weekend we got him and had never seen her come home), so when she came inside without knocking or warning he starting coming down the steps at her growling and barking (while advancing) before he recognized her voice and smell and stopped (at which point he started wagging his tail and greeted her happily). So I have no doubt if someone were to break him that he would eat them .

Wow, Nick, tons of progress in such a short time! Sounds like he's settling in well...so happy for all of you!

Dutchringgirl wrote:what about a regular harness? Do you guys find it does, or dosnt give much in the way of the dog understanding what is being asked, Ex. if he pulls will the harness correction mean anything to them? Im just thinking......... If the neck collars will damage their throat, a harness could be another alternative?

Personally I do not like the regular harness for walking the dogs. I think it causes them to pull even more.

Nick,

Congratulations on your new relationship!

I agree with not stressing about the formal heel for now. Spend the time bonding.

I use a prong/pinch collar on the dogs. I have found that going down a size (the smaller links) is much more effective and they don't look as menacing to other people. Plus it gives you more points of contact. All it takes is a flick of the wrist to get their attention. On the rare occasions when the dog is being a complete meat head a good yank really gets their attention....rarely have to do this. But, if I have a flat collar on either dog I am continuously fighting their pulling and not wanting to pay attention. They "know" that when the pinch collar is on it's time to listen...

When walking the dogs I use two commands/positions. "Walk" means to be in a very general heeling position. The dog needs to be close to me, but is free to do the occasional sniff, looking around, etc. The other one I have gotten sloppy with the command but generally it is "go" or "free" which means the dog is free to the extent of the length of the lead (either a 6 ft leather or a retractable). the dogs are free to do what they want as long as they keep moving in a generally forward manner, stay towards the right ( i often walk on a trail with a lot of people passing) or away from the road, and they are NOT allowed to pull.

The third is a formal heel and I don't use it very much.

leih merigian wrote:Wow, Nick, tons of progress in such a short time! Sounds like he's settling in well...so happy for all of you!

Thanks. I work waay to much and don't have a ton of time to train him, but pretty much all my time off work revolves around him now, lol. And I think he is learning so quickly since I feed him the majority of his dinner by making him work for it. A few kibbles at a time. The whole dinner usually takes a good 20min, and he's learned he needs to do things right to get fed. He actually made it all the way over on his own today with roll over! Of course I still had to lure him, but it is great progress.

Out of curiosity, if you only had a short time to work with your dog in the morning before leaving, say 30min, would spend it with a walk or playing ball? Some morning I have to be in really early (like 3hrs early tomorrow) and just can't afford to wake up as early as I would on a normal day. I usually give him a 30min walk in the morning with about 20min of ball/play time but if I have to chose only one, which should it be? The ball will certainly burn more energy, but also tends to leave him a lot more hyper. So I'm not quite sure...

Breaking Bombs wrote: Out of curiosity, if you only had a short time to work with your dog in the morning before leaving, say 30min, would spend it with a walk or playing ball? Some morning I have to be in really early (like 3hrs early tomorrow) and just can't afford to wake up as early as I would on a normal day. I usually give him a 30min walk in the morning with about 20min of ball/play time but if I have to chose only one, which should it be? The ball will certainly burn more energy, but also tends to leave him a lot more hyper. So I'm not quite sure...

Great question, and I am sure we all have different opinions.

I think a combination of mental and physical stimulation is good. So the fetch gets him moving more - which will hopefully lead to a tired crash after. The walk is great mental stimulation, but doesn't provide much real exercise. Maybe 20 minutes of fetch, followed by 10 minutes of trick training. Then he gets the mental stimulation but he also calms down a bit by thinking before you have to leave. Just my thoughts.

Breaking Bombs wrote: Out of curiosity, if you only had a short time to work with your dog in the morning before leaving, say 30min, would spend it with a walk or playing ball?

Actually, Christie and I are fairly close on this one .

I'd start with a quick potty break (only empty dogs get to play), then a short play session of perhaps 10 minutes, during which he as to do something for each retrieve or tug session. So, he has to sit or down or spin or get between your legs or do any behavior you've taught him...even string them together...spin, sit, otherway, platz, stand, wait....go! This challenges his brain (I call it Stump the Pup), and also, he gets the exercise of fetching.

Then the walk, a good cool off for the recently worked muscles, storing up all those good scents to process for the day, and getting the tanks totally empty.

BTW...you should think about developing a good little warm up routine before you start any real exercise with him. With my girl, we do three spins in each direction, then three fig 8s around the legs (this is all at warp speed, mind you ), then a play bow (Bravo!), for 10 seconds, then a sit up for 10 seconds, then stand straight up on hind legs from the sit up, then a couple of fetches. They need warm up/cool downs just as we do, and these little routines don't take much time, plus they are a signal of what is coming. For serious jumping and such, I do more stretches and etc.

Really nice note about warming up the muscles. Especially after a dog has been at rest.

When I first get up for work, Thor, a very interactive guy, knows (learned) it's not his time; he hangs back. There comes a certain point that I can "warm him up" while continuing to get ready and can also involve strengthening obed--through invitation. Examples: while walking around...heel work; fixing the hair/make-up (okay, not part of your morning routine, Nick)...circle, back, other room, down, etc.

Then we do throw-bring (at 240 mph) for however the time allows. (Ten minutes or more.)

He's learned that he has to immediately, even with distractions, "bring" and place the object in my hands (I won't bend over or move to get it; the horse-ball he has to get near my hands,); he's also learned that he has to focus on me before another throw; on/off he needs to perform something before another throw (touch, circle, back,etc.) In every session of toss, regardless of occasion/time/place, he is also told to stay while whatever object is thrown; focus on me until he's released. (This is my favorite: upon release he flies 500 mph.)

Though you and your boy are still getting to know each other and such, Thor now knows what is expected during "play," and if he tests it: "Game over." He doesn't like those words. Play becomes not only more enjoyable but productive (for both). He understands the time contrainsts during the weekday mornings (rather, the routine) and wants to get the most out of it.

You and Brutus are very lucky to have found each other. He sounds awesome and you clearly are committed to him.

I just wanted to note how amazingly awesome of a dog brutus is. Some days I work all day, and like last night, I was gone for 20hrs without any notice (I thought it was going to be a normal 9-10hr day). But I came home home and he was doing great in the backyard, defending it from squirrels and birds, and charging me (with excitement) when I finally got home at 6am. He is full of energy when I want to play with him, or walk, but when I come home exhausted without the energy to even walk, he is ok and just just relaxes with and goes to sleep when I do. If only I could teach him to sleep in past 7am lol, haha.

thats great Nick!