Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hey Judith!!

What can you tell me about the genetics of silver brindle vs. gold brindle. I have a rescue that just came in from NC. She is about 18 months. So far I like her ALLOT!! She was confident from the minute she walked in the door, social, tugs and hunts. She is slight in frame (50lbs...but it looks good on her - I would call her petite), snipey and about 18 months old (that's a guess). She was a stray. I know of multiple breeders in the NC area that cross mals in with brindle, and I don't know if that would effect things at all. She is the second silver brindle that I have ever seen (the first was a Timo son puppy) and I was wondering how the genetics work and what I could learn about her with that knowledge.

I've had her for about 12 hours....and only been home for 8 of those.....six of which were sleeping. But now I know that she is VOCAL!!!! Really vocal!!!! Especially in the crate. Oh yeah, and 7 foot fences - apparently no problem.

Technically....silver brindle does not exist in the Dutch Shepherd.
It is the same stuff that gold brindle is made of, only in different concentration. Before I confuse the heck out of everyone: yes, the breed standard says there is such a thing as a silver brindle DS, but in our breed, it is nothing more than a difference of expression of the same color. If you have ever seen a palomino horse, compare the rich gold to the washed out cream looking isabella. Same genetic material, different dose.
I would not dare to take a stab if the presence of malinois blood would affect the appearance of the fawn base (that is directly repsonsible for the 'gold' or 'silver' brindle appearance) Most malinois that I know and see, are a nice red, to mahogany. The very pale washed out look is not very popular in malinois either.
I have personally never seen a DS that I would label silver brindle. I have never even been convinced when shown pictures of what people claimed was a silver brindle. As long as there is a hint of yellow in the coat (it is gold)

Maybe I can get Marjolein to post some pictures of a DS in Holland that was said to be silver. He was not to me, and there lies the catch: Since it is the same material (phaeomelanin) for both gold and silver brindle, it would naturally come down to personal interpretation.

Judith, speaking of the DS breed standard...

I was wondering the other day, is there one overall breed standard which applies to the breed, or does the FCI have one standard, and non-FCI folks such as unto ourselves have another standard?

confused in VA

And, I guess the next question is who determines the standard?

There should be just one breed standard, Leih. But the interpretation of the standard is where variations within a breed will start happening.
As an example: the DS breed standard says that 'too much black' is undesirable. What 'too much black' is, is in part, in the eye of the beholder. Another example would be the GSD angulation. I feel pretty darn confident that Von Stephanitz really did not envision the slope backed animals that occur these days, especially in the show circles, but it is the result of interpretation (and fashion) Regional or national differences are often observed in many breeds. I personally think that, if it still fits within the standard, it is an allowance for taste. Others think that there should be a mandatory 'look' that all dogs should conform to, in order to be allowed to call themselves DS's. And as you know, our DS's are subject to controversy because of the population of (Non FCI) KNPV dogs, that are labelled unpure and crossbed by the breed club, while the KNPV fans like to label the so called pure dogs as bad imitations and a far cry from what the breeds founders had in mind.

The breed standards for any breed, would be determined by the breed club in the mother country of a breed.
German Shepherds in Germany, Scottish Collies in Scotland, and Dutch Shepherds in Dutchland They would submit the standards to their national registry, who is likely affiliated with either FCI or another kennel club. An American breed would be affiliated with the AKC, and since that is a sister registry of the FCI, the standard would be copied by the FCI, if they decide to recognize the breed. A European breed would possibly be affiliated with the FCI and should the AKC decide to recognize the breed, they would more than likely follow the FCI standard.

thanks, Judith.

So, the FCI and the rest of us are looking at the same breed standard, just interpreting it differently.

leih merigian wrote:thanks, Judith.
So, the FCI and the rest of us are looking at the same breed standard, just interpreting it differently.

The write up is the same.
Sometimes there are little differences. What comes to mind is the witten color page on the AKC Belgian malinois (and tervuren) where there is a color code added for brindle. There is truly no such a thing as a brindle malinois (genetically impossible) but things like that lead to speculation and interpretation (that the DS is a brindle Belgian) for some readers.

But mostly, the written standard is (largely) the same, but enforcement can be pretty vastly different.
Germany just recently adopted tightened rules for the DS because they fealt they were losing the correct type. Their solution is that all breeding animals must be 'rated' (doesn't that sound nice and Geman to you?) and dogs that do not fit the standard OR their interpretation, will not be given permission to be used for breeding. Holland is attempting to implement much of the same.

Thank you Judith for the insight. I wasn't sure if silver vs. gold was another gene set like brindle vs. fawn...etc. But witht his dog, I can see exactly what you are saying. To look at her, she looks silver and black. But if you just look at the light hairs that produce the silver, you can envision am extremely light mal - what I would call buff (but don't know if that's at all technically correct). I can see where "if there is a hint of yellow" comes in. It looks silver (or for me who is starting to show it......grey hair) to me. But you can find isolated hairs that are just buff....that's the best way to describe it. Just off white, but not at all cream I should paste a paint swatch!

Anyway, thanks for clearing it up. I was hoping I could figure something out about her breeding based on that unusual trait. But apparently not.

You should find a good camera and post a pic of her for us to see what you are talking about.

Does UKC use the FCI written standard? Who worked with the UKC to setup the DS as a UKC breed? Just curious since we don't have a breed club and UKC usually lets the breed club set and change the standard. I'm not sure if they can put rules on breeding and registrations though.

vneerland wrote:
Maybe I can get Marjolein to post some pictures of a DS in Holland that was said to be silver. He was not to me, and there lies the catch: Since it is the same material (phaeomelanin) for both gold and silver brindle, it would naturally come down to personal interpretation.

Uhm, yup, if I knew where to look... Did you mean this pic?



Longhair Zorro, whithout his mask (I stole the joke, I'm not that funny myself...)

Thank you Marjo. Nice example. (but he has a mask, this Zorro of yours, so what's the deal?)

This dog shows a lot of what seems to be pure gray, but you can clearly see the 'buff' (I like that, Christie!) on his butt. If you use the rule of thumb that what is mostly gray should be called silver brindle, that would apply. If you are looking for silver only, it would not. This is what I meant when I said that I had personally never seen a (pure) silver. It might be nitpicking, and it probably is, but this actually goes to show pretty well, that a lot of what we see is up so personal interpretation. BTW...the light undersides that many of our gold brindles show, are often almost silver themselves. It is 'shading in the undercoat' at work. And have you ever noticed those cool shoulderstripes that some of our brindles have? That too is just the fawn base at work. (Lots of malinois have those too)



Marjolein: How about Frikke? He is a good example of permanent confusion too. Appears to be one thing in some pictures and another in others

Here's a Frikke pic, but I happen to know this one has been altered in PSP... but this dog is GOLD brindle according to FCI, and this is true since there is no silver brindle

Marjolein wrote:.. but this dog is GOLD brindle according to FCI, and this is true since there is no silver brindle

Muts
Trouble is, pups have to be listed as one thing or another, by the time the puppy papers are issued. I doubt many will reach 'silver' status in puppy coat. All kidding aside though. I remember there was a lot of talk about his dog being silver brindle. Do you have any other pictures where he looks lighter? He is gold to me, in this shot.

@Christie. I am really curious about your latest rescue now and would love to see how light colored she is.

I cannot find a clearer pic on-line, I will dig in my archives if I find the time... or ask

Sorry it took me so long! It takes two to get pics and Matt and I have been trading off being gone! Here are a few pictures of Storm. She is absolutely wonderful. She is good with other dogs, fine with the cats, retrieves well and loves to play. She is an escape artist (probably why she is in rescue) but is only looking for find her people and has yet to do any damage. She is also clean in a kennel, crate and the house (so far).

Here is her coat up close:


Sitting (she seems to know quite a bit of obedience):


And playing with the fris.....she LOVES that:

Pretty cool! She surely does look rather silver over much of her body, you are absolutely right about that. More than the pics that Marjolein posted of the short hair DS. I imagine seeing yellow on her hip. Just like the longhair in the pictures above. Naice. (as they say in the South)
As far as bloodline: That head. I have seen that type before, but I do not remember right now which dog that was. I am referring to the width of muzzle between the eyes. Reminds me of a GSD, but I have seen brindles with that too. (if I could only recall who?)

Christie, I can sure see how you thought she was an example of the silver brindle . I would've thought the same thing.

leih merigian wrote:Christie, I can sure see how you thought she was an example of the silver brindle . I would've thought the same thing.

Leih, the label is pretty much a matter of interpretation. Christie is totally right that she is pretty darn silver. I have never seen a totally silver one, so if one is holding out for that, it may be a long wait. I am trying to say that I would not argue with those who do call this silver brindle. I am just and will personally reserve that for the ones (if they exist?) that show no gold (or like christie called it: buff) at all. But that's just me.

Marouck looks silver also....but she isn't

As a pup


Almost 2 years old


7 years old


As you can see, she's got brown hair, some darker, some lighter... when the light shines on her in a particular way, she looks silver

This is Ivil's mother, Iente. As a pup she was very dark, but now she looks silver. If I'm not mistaking, it says " silver brindle" on her pedigree, but...she is not really silver all over
(I'll have to link the pics, the forum says they are too big?!)

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-K7NSOYLC.jpg

http://www.gus-troy.nl/images/eintepups ... s_4077.jpg
Iente with her last litter of only 3 pups (previous litters were, 12, 13, and 9)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_MBlNogDETvA/RnGh4 ... enland.jpg
Here you can see some very light yellow if you look hard enough, also Iente