Dutch Shepherd Forum

We're having a new problem with Zane - he no longer trusts/likes his dog walker and is being snappy with her (she's alone in the house with him when this happens). He used to love her like he loves us - huge tail wags and cuddling any time we ran into her on the street and she reported perfect behavior in the house for months - but that's all over.

Some background, we walk Zane with a harness (he can slip a collar easily and he's always been a nice on-leash walker so we don't need a choke or prong collar for him). Recently, he's been seriously lagging behind the other dog he's walked with (he likes this dog, so the problem's not there) and the walker asked if she could use another kind of collar for him (prong or choke). We had a choke collar from the rescue that they used on him all the time and that we've used from time to time (if his harness was in the wash, for example), so left it out for her to use. The first day, she used it and said that it really helped her keep him at a reasonable walking pace, so everything seemed fine. The next day, he snapped at her when she tried to put it on. Since then, we've put the choke collar away and she's gone back to the harness. He's still getting snappy with her when she tries to leash him up though.

The snapping seems like it's from fear, and I'm not sure how to get him to stop since no one else can be there when the dog walker is (we could manage a couple days meeting her, but not regularly). It's tough because we aren't there while he's misbehaving, so we have to figure out something that will prevent it in the first place. Can anyone think of exercises/confidence/trust building things we or the dog walker can do with Zane to help make it stop (we already do lots of obedience and try to get him used to things he finds scary)? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to handle it in the meantime before those exercises kick in?

Sorry for the super-long post, but I'm really not sure what to do here and we really need Zane to be good with his dog walker. Thanks!

Yikes. I don't know what to advise, but I am sorry that you and Zane are going through this.

Do you think she got ugly (or harsh) with him and he won't forgive her? I find that Xena is very happy go lucky, but when she feels bullied or unjustly treated, she turns ugly really fast. (Luckily this is usually aimed at the cat that ambushes her or my dad's dog that gets snappy.) They hold a grudge really well.

I hope you find a solution soon!

I agree with Lauren, Maybe she , not really meaning to, but yanked too hard with the prong? Since she asked for one, I would assume she knows they can be tough but if Zane is sensitive, he could have gotten upset if she gave a yank. How long have you had Zane? Could you put the prong on when you leave so its on for her?

It's not even a prong, just a regular choke chain. It occurred to me that she might have been too rough, and she's willing to go back to using the harness (which is what she was using successfully for months before this incident - we've had him just over 6 months). He is most definitely holding a grudge though.

We are going to leave him harnessed up in the morning so she doesn't have to touch him so much before getting him out of the house, and she's going to make sure he has a good toy in his mouth before putting on his leash. So hopefully that will help him forgive and forget.

Interestingly, I took him to the vet yesterday for shots and blood work and had to carry him (67 pounds!) across the waiting room because he refused to get on the scale by himself. No grudge at all for subjecting him to all of that.

If he is lagging behind, perhaps he has a medical condition that needs to be checked out. Maybe just the experience of having to walk at a pace he's not comfortable with was enough of a bad experience without her having actually done anything. How old is he again?

My guess is that he is not enjoying his time out right now and anticipating the problem when she walks in the door. I would get him checked out first and stop allowing the situation to occur right now.

He just went to the vet yesterday and is perfectly healthy. He's also walking and running just fine with us. He's only about 2 and a half. I'm 100% sure he's physically capable of walking at the pace the dog walker wants to walk (I've seen her out and about with other people's dogs and she's not going that fast. I often walk him at a much quicker pace. He's just lagging to sniff and the other dog he's walking with wants to get places, so the dog walker is trying to balance their two walking styles and needs Zane to speed up a bit to do so).

Unfortunately, we can't just not go to work, so I need to figure out another way to make the situation stop - any suggestions would be very appreciated!

Please don't treat him like a human. He needs to understand, he is getting nowhere with his "grudgy" thing. He will play you like a fiddle if you let him get away with this. You are the leader, he has to follow no matter what, harness (IMHO just makes pulling comfortable), choke, prong, rope, whatever. He will respect you for that and consequently trust you. Nobody trusts a weak leader.

Yeah, this comment is written by someone who puts a mask and a snorkel on her dog

Schlussdibusti wrote:Please don't treat him like a human. He needs to understand, he is getting nowhere with his "grudgy" thing. He will play you like a fiddle if you let him get away with this. You are the leader, he has to follow no matter what, harness (IMHO just makes pulling comfortable), choke, prong, rope, whatever. He will respect you for that and consequently trust you. Nobody trusts a weak leader.

I'm not at all sure how to apply this advice because the problem occurs when I'm not there. I somehow need to train him not to do a behavior that he doesn't exhibit around me. I can do whatever I want to him and he's fine. That trust just doesn't extend to his dog walker and I need to figure out how to make him trust her again.

sorry, I am no help with this.

I never trusted another human with the care of my dogs. I guess I have trust issues But what I've seen dog walkers do to other people's dogs and get money for it. No way - absolutely not.

I probably messed up my career badly because I only took jobs close enough to get home during lunch to take the dogs out. Only vacation if everyone comes along. The longest I left my Labs in the last 14 years was for 36 hours, once, and a friend of mine visited them at home and let them go out in the fenced back yard.

I know this is crazy, obsessive behavior but I just don't trust people with my dogs.

I know this will not help you. May be change to another dog walker, take the dog with you to work, a job closer to home, quit your job and become homeless and live with your dog in the car, okay, okay I stop now.........

I understand what Eva is saying. He dosnt have the problem with you because he knows YOU are his leader. The dog walker is not, according to him. The walker needs to establish that SHE is his leader. My neighbor who just got a sweet dog, pulls them all over because they dont establish the order. When I take the dog, she dosnt pull, she knows im the boss. When she is walking Zane with the others, she needs to make him walk at the pace SHE wants. Zane cant sniff where ever he wants.

Im in the same place as Eva, I work at home so I can be with my dogs, I also have trust issues with other people coming into my house and taking care of my dogs, Id rather board them or leave them with my parents to terrorize.

I doubt there's a one and only way to go here. FWIW, I'm with Christie, tho; I wouldn't force him to continue walking with this person, until/unless you get it figured out first. At the very least, you're allowing him to practice unwanted behavior, which will only reinforce it continuing. You also can't be absolutely sure how the walker is being with him.

At his age, he can certainly go 8 hours while you're at work without being walked. If you have to get up an hour earlier to exercise him before you leave for work, then he can just rest until you get back home, that may be an option.

(I hate choke collars, period)

Schlussdibusti wrote:sorry, I am no help with this.

I never trusted another human with the care of my dogs. I guess I have trust issues But what I've seen dog walkers do to other people's dogs and get money for it. No way - absolutely not.

I know this is crazy, obsessive behavior but I just don't trust people with my dogs.

Not so crazy, I don't trust anyone with mine either.

I agree with the others here, and Zane is not seeing her as a pack leader.

If you need someone to walk him during the day when you are at work, isn't here someone else you can find? Someone he will respect?

I hope you can find a resolution.

I dont trust people with mine either, specially not with Merlin. He is different from other dogs and with the wrong person, he might walk all over them and it could get bad. I have seen people get upset with dogs that wont listen to them and all out get rough. I'm not saying I've never swatted Merlin or jerked him around, but I dont get out of hand. If someone he wasnt comfortable with was to get rough with him, I could see him biting and really hurting someone. Maybe on one of your days off you could ask the walker to come and just watch home things play out.

leih merigian wrote:I doubt there's a one and only way to go here. FWIW, I'm with Christie, tho; I wouldn't force him to continue walking with this person, until/unless you get it figured out first. At the very least, you're allowing him to practice unwanted behavior, which will only reinforce it continuing. You also can't be absolutely sure how the walker is being with him.

I agree with the reinforcement thing, you don't want this to continue and become and ingrained "okay" behavior. You said you might be able to be present for a couple times when she is leashing him up? Does he do that behavior when she is leashing him when you are present?

There are a few things you can do, letting it go any further is not one of them. It's been stated a few times, but I'll reiterate, it has to stop now before it becomes the norm. The problem is only when she is leashing him up? Or does it continue on the walk? Having you observe and correct is good, but they're very smart and may figure out that being good is only while your present. Your dog walkers status, attitude (probably), and demeanor need to be altered in his eyes. The proper use of NILIF will start him out on the right foot of establishing and maintaining leadership.

She probably has some nervousness to some degree about the incident and how she handles him now, he can pick up on that and react accordingly with anxiety himself. That needs to change on her end. She needs to approach the situation in a relaxed and up-beat manner like she used to, that will help the entire situation from the get-go. I've always been a firm believer in walks not being just walks, mental exercise just as much as physical exercise is needed, and with dutchies its more of a requirement imo. I've just started with a young dutchie, and already I can tell how fast those gears are turning in his head. I like doing some light ob while on walks, it keeps his mind sharp, keeps his attention on what I'm doing, and establishes me as leader. Confidence and trust isn't going to happen overnight, it's earned and should be reciprocated between dog and handler. Dogs can tell when your nervous, relaxed, happy , sad, and everything in between just by your body language. Dogs can read you better then you can read yourself. Body language is huge in the world of dogs, so much is communicated in such a short period of time it's amazing. If your really interested try this http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dog ... t_ep_dpt_1 , highly reccomended.

Your dog walker could use positive reinforcement methods to change the behavior associated with putting on his leash, marker training comes to mind with a tried and true method of teaching or re-training proper behavior. A choke chain, prong collar, dominant dog collar , etc. are all correction collars. Really, with a properly trained dog that is shown how to walk on a loose leash , there is no need what-so-ever for any of them (obviously there are exceptions). Choke chains have been proven to cause muscle damage in the neck of the dog that uses it, anything that restricts the airflow and ability to breathe properly in a dog, I consider inhumane imo. Dog training methods have advanced well beyond the need for that particular outdated tool.
I shouldn't have to strangle my dog to get him to listen to me. There will be many differences of opinion on this, it's just what I believe.

Some food for thought, and of course it's all imho.

Thanks everyone. Lots to think about here. Will let you all know how it goes!

An update - we have success! I worked with the dog walker on making him earn his treats (doing obedience with her) and he's now wagging his tail, not doing any snapping or anything naughty, and she's able to come into the house, play squeaky toys, and pick up his leash. I think it's going to take some time to get them back to where they were, but it's already getting better. So thanks everyone for the help!

Yeah, a good leader is key. More importantly how do you know if you're? I know a few times I was challenged with the snappy teeth showing and it's an instant to the floor deal with me(usually stand over him). If you wait or shrug it off it opens new doors for all dogs. Usually after this he stays away from me and if I even go near him he runs away but I don't chase him. I just go about my business... letting him know who I am. I honestly don't know if this is the right way to be the leader. I do a lot of work with Koda and he gets in the zone of I'll do whatever you want(ignoring the barking dog or squirrel playing across the road). I feed him on command and I'm very strict about certain things and he respects me when it's not right. Certain people scare him and he just barks frantic but I shut it down just by touching him. If koda was trying to bite someone all I would have to say is no and that is that.

It could be more complicated than that though.

alexis wrote:An update - we have success!

I'll say! Great news and good job!