Is this a Dutch Shepherd?

[kamhughes]

I'm trying to find out more information about my dog. My mom thinks she's a Dutch Shepherd, and I have to admit, they seem pretty similar, apart from the ears (get to that in a minute).

First, the story - Lucy was apparently abandoned near our house last December. At the time, I would guess she was about ten months old - she still had some very puppyish behaviors but was about full size, she just needed to fill out a bit. The only clues I have to her previous life are the fact that she was very protective of food (in a way that makes me think she had been with other dogs and she was the lowest ranking in the pack), that she would flinch if you raised your hand too suddenly (so someone had hit her) and that she rarely barked for the first couple months (I'm going to guess that whoever hit her did it in response to her barking). She quickly showed herself to be extremely intelligent, friendly, and willing to please.

As time went on I realized Lu is INCREDIBLY agile - I've seen her squirm through holes that were about 8" x 10" and jump two and a half feet from a standstill. She's a pretty good sized dog, she's about 65-70 lbs and over two feet at the shoulder (don't remember what, specifically, I measured her months ago). She's the smartest dog I've ever had and she is a people pleaser. She thinks all other animals are there for her to make friends with and I'm not looking forward to the day when she tries to make friends with a skunk.

My mom saw something on TV about Dutch Shepherds and thought it seemed identical to Lucy. I'm not entirely convinced - primarily because of the rarity of the breed around here, at least as far as we know. Lucy does tend to match the physical characteristics with one exception - her ears are both a little floppy, although the left one manages to stay up most of the time - the right one is always headed downward. Does this tend to happen occasionally? Could she be a cull from a breeder (possibly a puppy mill)?

I'm sorry I don't have better pictures, but getting her to stand still long enough to take a decent picture is next to impossible. She always wants to flop over so you can scratch her belly.

[vneerland]

Hello Kamhughes. Welcome here.
If you don't mind, please take a minute and introduce yourself elsewhere in the 'introduction' secion. Just because it is more pleasant for all of us to know who M/F we are talking to.

To your story. Wow! I don't know where you live (but we might find that out after your intro) but I am almost buying the 'bad breeder' theory. Size wise from your description, she is on the large(r) side. You already noted the ears. I think they are not standing because they are not meant to stand. The sape does not appear to be quite right, but since they did attempt a stand anyway, I would guess that at least one parent had standing ears. The mask is not pronounced, but that too happens in DS's sometimes. And the tail.I see an un-DS like tail. It is too fluffy, though very pretty.
Lucy, to me, looks like part GSD and part brindle parent with floppy ears. The face does not appear very bulldog-ish (one of the main brindle culpits in the USA) but it could be any other large dog brindle as well. Maybe a sighthound.
Back to the bad breeder assumpion. To the best of my knowledge, there are no DS's in puppy mills just yet. And if there are, they can exepect a mad me to pay them a visit soon. There are, unfortunately, breeders who have no business reproducing, but I am not convinced that any of those would turn a dog loose because of floppy ears that were supposed to be standing ones I share your opinion. Lucy ended up looking the DS part. Maybe not the best bred one, but she could pass. No, it is not likely, and no, it is probably not true, but if you don't use her for breeding, I would not be offended if you called her a(n honorary) DS.

[leih merigian]

Hey Kamhughes!

Cool looking dog you've got there, and sounds like a winner as a pet. Agile is a lot of fun, isn't it?

Do you have any plans for her, such as agility?

[turnnburn52984]

I agree with Judith, I see a GSD tail, and possibly a sighthound mixed in. I'm also with her on the fact that a puppymill is not likley to have DS's, as they generally don't make a very good house pet. High drive, high energy dogs, that need a job! Look like you have a beautiful, sweet mix though. Good job on giving her a home! We need more people like that around.

You can always consider getting her DNA tested. With Dutchies it's often un-conclusive. You need to make sure the brand of test your vet uses includes DS blood, and even then.... Dutch Shepherds are a notoriously 'mixed' breed. They are often crossed with Mali's to add some intensity and agility back in, or with a GSD for extra bone and size. This is very common in Europe, so even on a papered FCI dog you're likley to see results showing GSD, Mali's (or any of the Belgian breeds, for that matter) and DS lines.

Regardless of who her momma and daddy were, nice to meet you. I'm new here too.

Kelly

[vneerland]

and even then.... Dutch Shepherds are a notoriously 'mixed' breed. They are often crossed with Mali's to add some intensity and agility back in, or with a GSD for extra bone and size. This is very common in Europe, so even on a papered FCI dog you're likley to see results showing GSD, Mali's (or any of the Belgian breeds, for that matter) and DS lines.

Let's not start that discussion in poor Kamhughes thread. Yes, there are lots of examples of outide influences in the DS, but no, I do not subscribe to the theory that GSD or Mal are mixed into the FCI lines. What is included in the FCI population would be the KNPV genepool. Most of the KNPV DS's are the result of breeding for work, not for looks. GSD's have not been active in KNPV for more than 20 years now, or if they have been, it has been very spordic. Most likely influx into the FCI pool woud be the hodgepodge of 10th generation working dogs, but few 'pure' cousin breeds. Of course, in the end, there is at times still some 'uncertain' mixed in, but mostly not a Belgian for agility or GSD for size, like you stated above.

[Christie M]

and even then.... Dutch Shepherds are a notoriously 'mixed' breed. They are often crossed with Mali's to add some intensity and agility back in, or with a GSD for extra bone and size. This is very common in Europe, so even on a papered FCI dog you're likley to see results showing GSD, Mali's (or any of the Belgian breeds, for that matter) and DS lines.

Let's not start that discussion in poor Kamhughes thread. Yes, there are lots of examples of outide influences in the DS, but no, I do not subscribe to the theory that GSD or Mal are mixed into the FCI lines. What is included in the FCI population would be the KNPV genepool. Most of the KNPV DS's are the result of breeding for work, not for looks. GSD's have not been active in KNPV for more than 20 years now, or if they have been, it has been very spordic. Most likely influx into the FCI pool woud be the hodgepodge of 10th generation working dogs, but few 'pure' cousin breeds. Of course, in the end, there is at times still some 'uncertain' mixed in, but mostly not a Belgian for agility or GSD for size, like you stated above.

I have not found a DNA test that does have Dutch Shepherds in the gene pool here in the US. Can anyone recommend one? In the absence of the parent breed, the genetic test looks for "Similiar" genetic markers. Those markers may not have anything to do with the right breed at all. So if the parent breed is not represented, you may end up with results that have nothing to do with the dog in front of you. Most people assume it will show relation to closely related stock breeds, but it doesn't always work that way. We tested one DS. She was from KNPV stock, but brindle on both sides for quite a few generations. I can't remember what all showed up - but Portuguese Water dog was the first breed listed as most predominant. There were some other humorous breeds....with mal being very low on the list as having a minor influence.

[Marjolein]

and even then.... Dutch Shepherds are a notoriously 'mixed' breed. They are often crossed with Mali's to add some intensity and agility back in, or with a GSD for extra bone and size. This is very common in Europe, so even on a papered FCI dog you're likley to see results showing GSD, Mali's (or any of the Belgian breeds, for that matter) and DS lines.

Let's not start that discussion in poor Kamhughes thread. Yes, there are lots of examples of outide influences in the DS, but no, I do not subscribe to the theory that GSD or Mal are mixed into the FCI lines. What is included in the FCI population would be the KNPV genepool. Most of the KNPV DS's are the result of breeding for work, not for looks. GSD's have not been active in KNPV for more than 20 years now, or if they have been, it has been very spordic. Most likely influx into the FCI pool woud be the hodgepodge of 10th generation working dogs, but few 'pure' cousin breeds. Of course, in the end, there is at times still some 'uncertain' mixed in, but mostly not a Belgian for agility or GSD for size, like you stated above.