Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hello,

I’ve been lurking on this forum for the past week and a bit. I’ve had an opportunity to read through many of the past posts and thought now would be a good time to introduce myself, so…

My name is Bonnie. I’m a thirty something female from Ottawa, Canada. I don’t currently own a Dutch Shepherd but am researching the breed with the hopes of adding one to my family in the next year or so. I am an ex-soldier (artilleryman) turned accountant (how the heck did that happen!) and my husband is still enlisted. Following my military career, I did consider becoming a police officer, however, that career choice was not very practical considering we are a military family and do get posted from time to time. I would be in heaven if I were employed by the police or military with the K9s – that would be a dream! We don’t have children. We own our own home in the suburbs with a fenced yard but I dream of being in the country one day.

So why do I want a Dutch Shepherd? In a nutshell…size, drive, willingness to please. I’ve been involved with competitive dog sports since childhood. My parents raised German Shorthaired Pointers and I trained and competed with them in conformation, agility, and obedience. We also had a German Shepherd and he was the first dog I ever showed and trained all by myself – I was 11 years old. Fast forward to today, my husband and I own an Australian Shepherd. I purchased him as a pup with the goal of competing in agility. He’s a firecracker! I’ve put a few titles on him (agility, obedience, herding) and we have a blast. He is now almost 4 years old and we continue working towards our AAC agility championship and I’d like to do RALLY-O with him once we are finished with agility. I love the versatility of the Aussie and we like to train in different venues to keep things interesting. Last summer we took a tracking course. Wow, I LOVED it! I felt like I finally found “my place” in the dog world and I had the potential to move into SAR and maybe help people while working with my best friend and companion; totally bitten by the possibilities. Unfortunately, my Aussie lacks the drive to succeed as a SAR dog. I was disappointed, but of course, we can work together in other venues so c’est la vie, but I have in the back of my mind that I’d like the next dog to have the aptitude not only for agility and obedience, but also, Search And Rescue! I started thinking about the Dutch Shepherd after being introduced to a multitude of Belgian Shepherds of all varieties in my classes. I first heard of the Dutchie when I saw an ad for personal protection dogs in an issue of Dogs in Canada magazine as a child. I liked them but personal protection has never been an interest of mine and they are not common in my area so I didn’t give them too much thought until I started thinking about Belgian Shepherds, SAR, and the like.

So why don’t I just run out a buy a Dutch Shepherd? My husband and I also own a Boxer X Ridgeback. He is a challenge. We rescued him at 11 months of age, by which time he had already been returned to the shelter four times and was labeled as “uncontrollable and dangerous”. That was six years ago. Fate brought us together as we certainly weren’t looking for that “type” of dog. We’ve worked hard with him and I’m happy to say that while he will never be “easy” he certainly is “controllable” now and while he may be dangerous if left to think for himself, we carefully manage him and he is able to live a safe and normal life as a loved companion and member of our pack. On one hand, I’m very grateful to him for giving us the opportunity to learn and grow as dog trainers/handlers (I’ve never experienced anything like him before), but on the other hand, I never want to go through that experience again (if that makes sense). So, I’m being careful with my choices and being cautious as I research breeds. I should mention that my Aussie is not a push over either – they are a breed of strong guardian instinct, but I find the willingness to please makes a world of difference. My Boxer X has NO desire to please us and is as stubborn as they come. He respects us and does listen, but does not want to and he does complain about it (again, I hope that makes sense).

So that’s my resume, so to speak. I’m greatly looking forward to learning from this forum and would love the opportunity to meet Dutch Shepherds in our area. As I’ve mentioned, they aren’t common here and most of my experiences have been with their cousin, the Malinois. From my experiences and observations, I feel I could handle and enjoy working with a Belgian Shepherd, my goal is to determine how that translates to the Dutch Shepherd. Thanks for reading my post…I did get a bit long winded

Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you have your hands full, but dealing well with it. It sounds like it would be interesting to add a DS to your pack!

Howdy and welcome!! Loved reading your story. This is the best place to be to find out about DS. There are several people on here from Canada, not sure if they are in your area or not.

Welcome, Bonnie, and great intro!

You sure sound like a great fit for a DS...

Welcome

Welcome

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Hello from Toronto

Welcome from Maine!

Welcome from Texas.
I think we should give out a 'best intro' price. You'd win!

DS's can be suitable for SAR, yes, but not all dogs, or all lines. Search for pups (in due time) from parents that are either certified (! lots of SAR claims out there, not always serious) SAR dogs or detection dogs.
I think yours would be a great home though and I think you would love the breed.

Welcome from Louisiana!!

I'd have to agree with Leih, that you seem to be a good match for a DS.
And agreeing with Judith to research breeders, etc because a S&R DS would have to be congenial with both people, children and other dogs. Stable nerves for searching amongst ATVs, helicopters, sirens, equine searchers, boats, crowds, etc. You probably already know all of this.

I love their athletism for climbing, crawling under and through heavy brush, pilings, jumping easily over obstacles, etc. Most are the size that makes it easy for you to lift to help them through areas or over fences, etc.

When you get started, I have purchased a CD package (2 disks) that have dozens of sounds (mine has close to 70 sounds) made for Mounted Police (horse) training but I use it for my own dogs particularly the DS/GSD pups I have in right now. It is called Spookless and it works well. I'll have to find the link in case you are interested.

Scent work would have to be my favorite of all dog activities, too.

Keep us posted.

a S&R DS would have to be congenial with both people, children and other dogs. Stable nerves for searching amongst ATVs, helicopters, sirens, equine searchers, boats, crowds, etc

Yes, these traits are certainly what I'm looking for. I'm interested in the CDs you've described. I used something similar to desensitize my boxer mix to the sound of other dogs and children playing. He was older when I started with him, but we still saw some success with the discs.

Search for pups (in due time) from parents that are either certified (! lots of SAR claims out there, not always serious) SAR dogs or detection dogs.

This is so important! Thank-you! I've spent the last three years researching Aussie bloodlines and am just now comfortable with who's who and who is suited for what. So far as Dutch Shepherds, I'm at the very beginning of my education. I know the difference between FCI and KNPV and that's about the extent of my knowledge at this point! I don't know any of the bloodlines yet; I'm a true newbie Luckily, dogs are my passion, so I love the research phase (which never really is a phase, is it? Seems to be ongoing for me!).

If you're interested in SAR, get in touch with Dave Walker from CRDogs.com
He runs the Ontario SAR group (http://www.sardogsontario.com/) out of Oakville (near Toronto) and they use Dutchies exclusively for all their SAR work. He would be a great person to talk to about lines, etc as he has a lot of experience in implementing Dutchies for this type of work. He also trains detection dogs (bombs, drugs) although for this he will use any dog with adequate drive and temperament.

If you're interested in SAR, get in touch with Dave Walker from CRDogs.com
He runs the Ontario SAR group (http://www.sardogsontario.com/)

This is amazing! Thank-you so much! I've been working with a local trainer and member of our SAR team and she's been busy trying to convince me that I should be looking at DDR German Shepherds and not Dutchies. Of course, she's never actually worked a Dutch Shepherd before so...

I will contact Dave. Thanks for the info!

Aussie_shep wrote: I've been working with a local trainer and member of our SAR team and she's been busy trying to convince me that I should be looking at DDR German Shepherds and not Dutchies. Of course, she's never actually worked a Dutch Shepherd before so...

I know of a case where the absolute reversed happened. A die hard GSD man, training director for an excellent (Fema certified urban and wilderness) SAR group in Monterrey California was none too pleased when a first DS showed up for training. But she was an outstanding dog. He told himself at first that that was a fluke. DS # 2 and 3 followed, and now he will likely tell someone who shows up with a GSD why they should consider a DS instead.
With that being said. If that DDR GSD loving person is all you have access to, you might not get the same devotion if you show up with a DS. Something to consider.

I've considered the German Shepherd before. I first turned away due to health and the weak hind end. I was introduced to some DDR GSDs and was quite impressed by them so I do have renewed faith in the health/temperament of the breed and so happy there are dedicated breeders out there working hard to preserve them. However, at the end of the day, they are still quite large. When I look at it rationally, if something happened when we were out on a search and I had to carry my dog out of the bush by myself, I'm not sure I could carry an 80 lbs dog. I'd be on pure adrenaline to accomplish that I think I can easily carry my 45 lbs Aussie and with a little less grace, can lift and carry my 65 lbs Boxer X. I can carry more weight in the "fireman carry" but have never had a dog in that position. Maybe I could do it but I'd personally prefer a smaller framed dog.

Ironically, the trainer I'm dealing with locally has Malinois and it is by observing her and her dogs over the last 4 years that I started thinking about Malinois and their cousin the Dutch Shepherd. I also see lots of Belgian Shepherds in the agility ring/classes (agility is my other passion) and actually heard that same trainer say she cringes when she gets a GSD signed up for agility class as she feels they just aren't built for it. Of course, I just overheard that conversation and she could have been talking about American Showlines only, IDK, but I definitely would like to continue competing in agility. When she was speaking with me about the DDR GSD she was saying that only a small percent of Belgian Shepherds do well in tracking (I think she said 20%) and that is why the police rely more heavily on the GSD. I don't know how true that is. I look forward to hearing from Dave as he has experience working the Dutchie in SAR and will be working along side the GSD so I think he'll be able to make a good comparison.

Aussie_shep wrote:Ironically, the trainer I'm dealing with locally has Malinois and it is by observing her and her dogs over the last 4 years that I started thinking about Malinois and their cousin the Dutch Shepherd. I also see lots of Belgian Shepherds in the agility ring/classes (agility is my other passion) and actually heard that same trainer say she cringes when she gets a GSD signed up for agility class as she feels they just aren't built for it. Of course, I just overheard that conversation and she could have been talking about American Showlines only, IDK, but I definitely would like to continue competing in agility. When she was speaking with me about the DDR GSD she was saying that only a small percent of Belgian Shepherds do well in tracking (I think she said 20%) and that is why the police rely more heavily on the GSD. I don't know how true that is. I look forward to hearing from Dave as he has experience working the Dutchie in SAR and will be working along side the GSD so I think he'll be able to make a good comparison.

Always beware of generalizations. There is no GSD's do this or DS's do that, really. It all depends on bloodline, training and yes, individual dog. BUT. Many police deparments use Malinois and (more rare, but not as available either) DS's, I would say at least 50% of departments, but possibly more. The Malinois and Hollanders tend to be faster, more reactive, often greatly suited for protection. There are also many examples of dogs that excel in nose work, tracking included and percentage statements are individual opinions. I train K9s and have a preference for Malinois and Ds's but if I say that only 5% of GSD's might have a snowballs chance in h*ll of doing KNPV (a protection program) then that is my personal take on it, since I have no data to back that up. I have actually had some good drivey GSD's come through. Most of which ended up having physical problems that prevented them from working as hard or as long as the Belgians and Hollanders. So in a nutshell no. Police do NOT rely more heavily on GSD's. And NO, it is not true at all that only 20% of Malinois can track.

I'd have to agree with Judith here. So many variables and no true way to stereotype even within the same breed. Just look at the wide spectrum in the GSD. Out of those nearly 200 GSD rescues I had through here over those years, no two were alike, similar of course but each different. But training narrowed the gap.

Personally I find that the DS is more athletic, light on their feet (paws), less mess actually. Serious here; my German Shedders never stop shedding profusely. Our two are blowing coat now constantly, look like sheep shedding. When you are in close quarters in rescue vehicles, or camping out on searches, the GSD hair is a pain, its on everything. I can just imagine in a police unit all day, every day, having to contend with that. I know this sounds petty but there is no comparison with my DS. She sheds slightly. Sorry off track here.

My husband's male GSD is out of DDR lines. He has some decent drive but cant hold a candle to the DS. The problem is that he is massively boned, heavy and bulky, strong as an ox and athletic but just a lot of dog. Very nice temperament though, not reactive.

I've started the DS/GSD pups in scent and they are working out very well. Got an edge to them, naturally protective, but they do have an off switch and can settle and concentrate. Like the best of both, so far.

Aussie_shep wrote:only a small percent of Belgian Shepherds do well in tracking (I think she said 20%) and that is why the police rely more heavily on the GSD.

I remember from talking to Dave one of the reasons they use the Dutchies is because he found they were generally much better trackers (which you need for SAR work). He's gone through a number of mals imported and trained for police work and his experience the way he explained was that they generally relied much more on their eye sight and it was much easier/reliable to get the Dutchies to follow their noses. So for any tracking type work he alway preferred the Dutchies. In my limited experience I do find the mals I know to be more visually reactive (i.e. they see planes in the sky).

BTW curious, who are you training with in Ottawa? I know a few trainers there and a couple mal people.