Dutch Shepherd Forum

Thank goodness!

It was 90+ for the only two days that we were showing outside and Boaz hated it!

Thursday was the Top Ten competition. The top 10 ranking dogs of each breed compete by invitation. Boaz won the top 10 for DS. At the next level, semi finals, he made the first cut, but was not chosen to go on to the Finals. But I'm still proud of him. We had our photo taken for the UKC Bloodlines magazine.

I was also entered on Friday and Saturday in Champion class, outside in the heat, and we didn't get anything. Boaz kept trying to lay down. As soon as I stacked him and stepped back, again, he would lie down. Then there was something in the grass that was distracting him.

But a long-hair female (FCI) import from the Czech Republic, Ceska (CH BRANGWAIN CESKA WAPINI V. FOLGE) won BOB both Friday and Sunday.

Saturday was won by Luna van Cher Car, a female Dutch-Mal mix. That judge likes the mixes.

I'm so glad I didn't enter anything else. I really hated the heat, so did Boaz. I think if they continue to hold this in June, I'll not attend again. Bummer!

Oh, I forgot. Boaz did get something else on Saturday. He got a ribbon for Champion Award of Merit. I think that means 3rd place.

It is very hard in the heat, so what can you do...too bad for that.

Congrats on what you guys accomplished!

Congratulations Carole & Boaz! We'll be looking for pictures!

that's awesome Boaz!! Congrats and pics when you have a chance.

Congratulations. Well done in the heat. poor pup.

yup, if they are not used to those temps...it's hard to keep them looking good, they walk badly, ears hang, lie down... But hey, you still got good results! Congrats! range:

Ms. Goetzelmann,

I received an email directing me to this post, and I must admit that I am utterly dumbfounded by your statements. Luna van Cher Car is most definitely NOT a “Dutch/Mal mix” and I am flabbergasted that you would write such a thing… especially since I know this was entirely made up in your own mind!!!

UCD UAGI URO1 UWP CA CH Luna van Cher Car (who took best female & best of breed at the Premier on Saturday 6/16/2012, qualifying for Total Dog and is now a UKC Super Dog) is out of OBPD1 PD1 AOB PA CH Schefflers C’est Touché Cher Car, BTr (bred by Melissa McCord-Scheffler of Madison, Wisconsin) and URO1 UAGI OB2 P2 OB1 P1 OBPD1 PD1 FO Vrijheid’s Adrenaline Rush, BTr (bred by Asheley Winters DVM of Draper, Utah). If you had done one bit of research before making your grossly uninformed and totally inaccurate statement, you would have immediately found Luna’s pedigree on the Dutch Shepherd pedigree database (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dutch_s ... id=1312849) which clearly reveals she is very well bred Dutch Shepherd. I hope you hastily express an apology to Luna’s owner Mrs. Sarah Zipp for the degrading and utterly false remark made about her dog, along with one to her breeder Cher Car Kennels (about which another little bit of research would have revealed to you that Rush and Touché are the Number 1 Dutch Shepherd SIRE and DAM on the UKC TOP 10 Producers List based on progeny titles earned).

Lastly, your statement implying that Judge Kathie Treacy favors mixed breed dogs over pure bred ones in the performance of her duties as an honorable UKC judge is ludicrous, and you should consider extending her an apology as well. Anyone that dedicates themselves to the sport of pure bred dogs and has the qualifications to prove it (thus enabling her to become licensed as a judge) should not have their hard earned reputation besmirched by your slanderous statement.

Carole Field - Cher Car Kennels http://www.CherCarKennels.com

*gets out the popcorn*

Hi Carole. I have looked at Luna's pedigree and there certainly are Malinois there. It doesn't mean that she's not a pretty girl and didn't deserve her win.

I have only stated a fact based on actual statistics. All judges have their preferences. (I didn't name names, either.)

I have no problem with people owning the type of dog they want to own, be it Pekinese or Great Dane. People need to stop being so touchy about their mixed dogs. And I really am tired of people telling me I have a Malinois with stripes. I have only checked my dog back 60 years, but so far all his ancestors are all NHSB registered dogs. Most people don't know that their DS are actually mixed, and I feel that is dishonest of the breeders. In Europe it seems the dogs are clearly called mixes and everybody knows it, anyway.

I have been checking many dogs' pedigrees to look for American breeding stock. I have run across very few purebred short-hair DS.

CaroleBoaz wrote:I have no problem with people owning the type of dog they want to own, be it Pekinese or Great Dane. People need to stop being so touchy about their mixed dogs. And I really am tired of people telling me I have a Malinois with stripes. I have only checked my dog back 60 years, but so far all his ancestors are all NHSB registered dogs. Most people don't know that their DS are actually mixed, and I feel that is dishonest of the breeders. In Europe it seems the dogs are clearly called mixes and everybody knows it, anyway.
I have been checking many dogs' pedigrees to look for American breeding stock. I have run across very few purebred short-hair DS.

Ahh... The pure bred discussion.
For the readers who don't know: NHSB stands for Nederlands Honden StamBoek, and is the Dutch FCI (federaction cynologique Internationale) partner, with FCI being a pedigree registry like AKC.

May I inform you that the mere fact that a dog has a NHSB pedigree also doesn't automatically qualify it as a 'pure bred' DS? Maybe your booz is 'pure'. I have not looked into his background, nor do I have any desire. But I dare to state that any dog that has vdVastenow in it's lineage, could possibly be suspected of some outside influence that was snuck into that (NHSB) gene puddle. Many NHSB pedigrees still carry that kennel name. Good thing for the DS, BTW. With their alarminglly low numbers, they would be in a world of trouble if they had not been exposed to some KNPV dogs.
It's okay to prefer your brindles for decoration only, that truly is everyone's privilege. But if your only education took place by talking to some NHSB DS breeders, you may have missed the part where there has been a lot of back and forth between KNPV dogs and FCI stock since the stud books in Holland closed, I believe in 1975. Before that, they were basically the same, where dogs that fit the profile could be entered into the books. The practice of false pedigrees does not make it all right to cheat. But it makes it hard to make accurate statements about 'pure' Dutch Shepherds, especially short haired ones. Maybe broaden your horizon, by realizing that a breed is not only something on paper, but also a specimen that meets the requirements, in both looks and temperament, that a breed standard describes.
I am sure that my dogs are included in your disapproval. After all, some of the ancestors of the dog that won on Saturday come from my kennel. (Melissa McCord bred Touche out of Coa, who was bred by me) And I feel confident that you also disapprove of the fact that some countries in Europe, have open stud books, where a dog that fits the breed standard (yes, my Nico was seen by a breed judge in Holland) can be entered as a 'register dog' and its correct offspring can be allowed to stay in the gene pool. Shame on those who are honest about their dogs! Best hush, sneak it in under false names and boast the illusive pure bred status.

But I suspect that you have no intention of sharing the limelight with the "mixes", even though the decoratives won on both Friday and Sunday. And I am sorry that you feel that way.

Thank you Judith for jumping in on this discussion. Your knowledge is great, and I know your depth of experience far surpasses that of the elitist Ms. Goetzelmann.

Most registrations of any breed, including cattle, goats and other assorted domestic animals are considered pure-bred with three generations, thus the UKC requirement of a 3 generation pedigree for registration.

One of the reasons we are trying to codify the breed with the UKC is to maintain the working ability of the Dutch Shepherd, which sadly has been lost in many of the purported “pure bred” dogs Ms. Goetzelmann espouses and is working towards gaining acceptance of by the AKC. It is the hope of the UKC Dutch Shepherd Dog Club of America to implement a test of temperament and ability in bite work which a dog must pass before it can obtain its Championship, to hopefully eliminate those who value looks over performance.

Carole Field - Cher Car Kennels (www.CherCarKennels.com)

vneerland wrote: But I suspect that you have no intention of sharing the limelight with the "mixes", even though the decoratives won on both Friday and Sunday. And I am sorry that you feel that way.

Hello Judith,

I guess the "decorative's" that are now being mentioning would happen to be my Longhaired bitch 'Ceska' who was imported from the Wapini von Folge kennel in the Czech Republic, who is a breeder of both LongHairs and ShortHairs. And yes, Ceska is beautiful, as well as intelligent, and she has a very stable and sound character and a wonderful temperament, as well as being extremely athletic. She lives on an 80 acre working sheep farm and posses all the original traits and instincts of a true Hollandse Herder. That being an all purpose farm dog, working as a farm guard, drover, livestock dog, and for carting.

If one only measures a dogs working ability by how hard they bite a person or an object, then I would say that, that is selecting for a single trait that will more than likely alter the character and true working abilities of the original founding breed. In my dialog with knowledgeable Dutch Shepherd breeders, owners and judges from the EU, one would actually select for a Hollander that does not poses the strong 'bite-work' instinct, as this has a tendency to lead to livestock dogs that use their teeth to control their charges, rather than their brains and other abilities.

I guess a lot of this discussion really boils down to each individual's opinion of what a 'working' dog really is.

And for the record, this is a photo of the sire of my long hair, who not only is a multi-country Champion and Grand Champion, but in your terms would be considered to have 'working ability' because of the 'bite work' that has been done with him.

Carole Field wrote:Thank you Judith for jumping in on this discussion. Your knowledge is great, and I know your depth of experience far surpasses that of the elitist Ms. Goetzelmann.

Most registrations of any breed, including cattle, goats and other assorted domestic animals are considered pure-bred with three generations, thus the UKC requirement of a 3 generation pedigree for registration.

One of the reasons we are trying to codify the breed with the UKC is to maintain the working ability of the Dutch Shepherd, which sadly has been lost in many of the purported “pure bred” dogs Ms. Goetzelmann espouses and is working towards gaining acceptance of by the AKC. It is the hope of the UKC Dutch Shepherd Dog Club of America to implement a test of temperament and ability in bite work which a dog must pass before it can obtain its Championship, to hopefully eliminate those who value looks over performance.

Carole Field - Cher Car Kennels (http://www.CherCarKennels.com)

Good morning Carole,

I must admit that I am not familiar with what qualifies within the UKC as a 'purebred' dog pedigree. But in the livestock world, Conservancy groups offer guidelines for grading-up, or for the one time addition of another breed of similar genetic traits to insure the survival of the endangered breed, or to broaden the gene pool of the desired breed. Once the new blood is added, then the subsequent progeny, the F1's, must be bred back to purebred sires for 7 generations before their F7 progeny are once again considered to be purebred.

As for the maintaining the Dutch Shepherd's "working ability" then one would want to ensure their selection for their true "original" working abilities. One would need to set up conformation requirements to stay within breed type for structure and movement, as well as to implement a herding test, and a test for bib ability and obedience, as well as one to sort out the extremes in temperament of aggressiveness or fearful shyness. IMO.

Again, I guess a lot of this discussion really boils down to each individual's opinion of what a 'working' dog really is.

Regards,

Matthew 7:6

If anybody wants to learn about the original, multi-talented, family dog, Dutch Shepherd,they know where to find us.

Beechtree wrote: I guess the "decorative's" that are now being mentioning would happen to be my Longhaired bitch 'Ceska' who was imported from the Wapini von Folge kennel in the Czech Republic, who is a breeder of both LongHairs and ShortHairs. And yes, Ceska is beautiful, as well as intelligent, and she has a very stable and sound character and a wonderful temperament, as well as being extremely athletic. She lives on an 80 acre working sheep farm and posses all the original traits and instincts of a true Hollandse Herder. That being an all purpose farm dog, working as a farm guard, drover, livestock dog, and for carting.

No Brenda, I am not the one who cries foul after taking two wins and losing one day to another dog. I'd say good for you, on winning those two days. I have nothing against decoratives, and from the sound of it, yours could do more than grace your interior. Not all dogs need to do bite work, I never claimed that either. It does, however, insult me to hear claims made of one gene puddle being pure and the only true and desirable DS, and for the ones who are not of NHSB background to call their dogs 'mixed'. In your perspective, 98% of dogs on this list would be 'mixed' and should remove the Dutch shepherd sticker, including many FCI registered dogs who do not boast the NHSB stamp. Pardon many of us for feeling that the background and exterior matters, but is not the sole criterion when selecting for dogs who can be capable of real jobs in the real world, something that is rarely found in your 'pure' Dutch FCI stock. Try not to confuse the ability to herd sheep, which was one of the functions that the DS was expected to perform, as the only thing they were used for. Protection work was as much part of their past as tending flocks. May I assume you don't believe the rumors that if a Dutch FCI dog does well in bite work, is has KNPV ancestors? I bet you label that as just gossip?
So you and some others went ahead and petitioned the AKC for recognition of the Dutch Shepherd. All 25 dogs that would pass your 'pure' definition, which all but equals the elimination of all working stock. And the rest of us out here? Best stop calling our dogs Dutch Shepherds. Really? You think so?

vneerland wrote:It does, however, insult me to hear claims made of one gene puddle being pure and the only true and desirable DS, and for the ones who are not of NHSB background to call their dogs 'mixed'.

Thank you Judith!

I have avoided posting on this thread because since my one outburst on Facebook, I have tried to remain civil to all parties involved.

Carole G - I came onto this thread planning to congratulate you, as I did on Facebook. Then I read what you posted.

You chose to attend a UKC Event and compete against everyone there. The mission of the UKC is "to be the world's best registry of purebred dogs...." Every handler at that show made the same decision and knows what UKC requires to consider a dog "pure." Every dog there is pure in the eyes of the registry and if you believe that the dogs within the organization are not representative of purebred dogs, then I would think you would choose not to support it. I realize there are very few other options. But it is your choice to attend.

My big problem is that you could have simply posted your brags, and we would all have been proud and supportive. You could have posted the other winners in a sportsman like way. But you chose to make comments that can only be viewed as malicious and with an agenda. You absolutely knew you were starting a debate when you wrote it. You are not the innocent who is being attacked, you are the instigator who started it all.

Then when the argument ensues, you back out quoting the bible??? And how is one to interpret the passage in this context. Were you giving us ingrates something precious and we were trampling them under our feet? Us dogs? Us pigs?

What you did was rude, and with what appears to be specific intent. It is impossible to read your post and not see the obvious jab, as well as the elitist attitude. By coming back and saying "she's a very pretty girl" doesn't change anything. You should have said "You're right. There really was no reason for me to mention something like that. I'm sorry" Because, again, there really wasn't any reason. You are entitled to your opinion, but it really doesn't matter. In the eyes of UKC, every Dutch Shepherd there was equally Dutch Shepherd and that is the only thing that matters when you choose to play their game.

Hi there! My name is Sarah. I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I chose this thread for my first post because my dog was mentioned. I am the very proud owner of UCD CA UWP CH URO1 UG1 Luna Van Cher Car. She is the dog that won Best of Breed (on Saturday )at the Premier.
I for one had a great time at the Premier! This was my first time showing at such a large event. I have been showing dogs for just less than a year now. I found the UKC staff to be very friendly and helpful. I met many new people and heard some great dog stories. Most important to me was making my own memories with friends. Sure, the winning was great, but it truely was just icing on the cake. To go in a years time from my first agility trial to earning UKC Super Dog recognition was literally a dream come true! None of this would have been even remotely possible if it were not for the women of Cher Car Kennel. They inspire me to be better than I think I can be and their wealth of knowledge is endless. Oh yeah, did I mention they breed "super dogs"?
While I am far too much of a novice to enter into any discussions on bloodlines/breeding, I do have an opinion on "working dogs"that I would like to share. My definition of a working dog is a dog that will willingly do whatever it's master asks of it, all day long if needed. Whether it is herding, biting, obedience, conformation showing, weight pull, whatever you choose... My dog did that for me this past weekend. Showing four days in a row not just in conformation but in obedience too. Luna showed just as good Saturday night at 9pm as she did when we went in the obedience ring 12 hours earlier. Now,that's the way it should be! This was the second time she has earned one of her performance titles in a weekend.
Think of her bloodlines the way you will. She is a UKC registered Dutch Shepherd. I show UKC. They recognize her as a purebred Dutch Shepherd and that's what matters to me. I consider myself blessed to be able to show dogs. To be able to do it with people you love...again, icing on the cake! Photo by Carole Field