Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hey all, when is the best time to breed your dog? Koda is a male and I was thinking about breeding him for stud service. I don't want a mix and I want to keep it pure, how does one get started in this? Koda is a year old, I was thinking about letting him go at it around 5-6.

Have you been paying attention to all the DS that are in rescue????

What health screenings do you plan to do, and do you know what health screenings the female should have?

What makes you feel You have a breeding quality animal? What does your dog have to offer the breed besides a bunch more pups? Who are you planning to breed him to, and are the lines compatible? What Improvements to the gene pool are you hoping the offspring will have to offer the breed?

What do you consider to be "Purebred", and why do you think someone who has one would come pounding on your door, when there are other DS studs available? Unless your dog has a proven himself in some accepted venue of conformation, training, or protection sport, you won't be able to get a big stud fee--if any.

Think long about this---most dogs don't need to, nor should they be bred. If you're looking for a quick buck--believe me, there are easier ways to generate money, breeding dogs is generally a loosing proposition when it comes to money.

I don't think breeding is a good idea either.

Every day I see NADSR post the rescues and cant get over how many there are! I love Sadie to death, she was from NADSR and I can handle her, but with double HD and a very high energy drive, I would hate to see what would have happened if she went to another home. Please, do not breed for the sake of breeding. There are soooooooooooo many dogs out there and these are not just any breed, they can be hard to handle and dont belong in just any home. There are plenty of top breeders out there who have top dogs. Leave it at that.

I don't want to post a lengthy negative reply. I am inundated with people who are currently breeding DS....and just don't belong doing so. But belong is a hard idea - who is really qualified and what makes one dog better than another. For me, its about caring about the breed enough to prove your dog as a breedable specimen. And then requiring the dog you breed to, to meet the same criteria.

Here is the minimum for my standards:
1 - Health clearances, to include a minimum of OFA or PennHIP official ranking placing the dog as "OFA Good or Excellent" or within the top 50% of the Dutch Shepherd breed via PennHIP DI Index.
2 - The demonstration of working qualities that will contribute to the breeds productivity. I don't always agree that breeding is done to "better" the breed. There are some amazing individuals out there, and if they reproduce themselves then that's extremely productive.

Now I will step in here and say that I know A LOT of people breeding untitled bitches. Not my favorite, but at least the majority of them have a clue what they are looking at. I have no respect for someone saying (or trusting a local trainer who says "I have been working dogs for 20 years and I know that's a good one"). If they were that good, or that well worked....then we would all know their names. If we don't, then its just another backyard person's opinion. And lets face it, an average DS is pretty high end for a normal dog. But its still the average or below for the breed itself.

The problem that I see is that so many people see the DS as a rare breed and don't see the harm in creating a few litters that will go to amazing homes.....they are sure. But in the end, they are not an easy breed by an means and there is very little market for puppies. Law Enforcement buys well socialized older dogs with a great foundation.....not puppies. Sport people have their choice of some well bred sport dogs in this country, so why would they chance it with an unproven parent? The true market for good working DS puppy homes probably comes to a grand total of about 30-50 per year, and that might be liberal. Those people are going to the proven breeders. So who else will end up with a puppy? You? A family member here or there. A trusted friend. And the other 8? Will those pups be evaluated and get the chance to be productive.

In the end, I'm not telling you not to breed. Its your dog and your call. I am being honest that the dogs are hard to get rid of and then many end up sacrificing quality of homes for convenience of getting them out. If you do choose to breed, I hope that you will prove your dog physically and in a venue of work to demonstrate that he will contribute positively to the gene pool.

Thank you for asking the questions though!

I have to agree with the points that Christie makes. But here is a job for you: List the reasons why we should all want a pup from Koda. You have another few years to work on his credentials. And maybe that makes breeding DS's harder than some other (pet-)breeds: The (working) expectations of the buyer, because with exception of a few for decoration only lovers, most expect to work their dogs in one way or another.

I know I'm not a breeder and hold no knowledge whatsoever as regards the subject, but I can chime in on my experience with the canine companions of my past. Border Collies, for example, are one of the smartest dogs out there, and they are beautiful animals. So saying, they are OUTDOOR dogs that need constant OUTDOOR exercise and stimulation. A lot of potential owners think that a beautiful, gorgeous dog breed with a stunning coat or color pattern would be ideal to have in their home. A smart dog would be EASY to train...

...not so fast. My first experience with a Border Collie had been one where I was the student and she was the teacher. She wanted to learn fast, learn NOW, and learn in a way that was constantly dynamic and mentally stimulating. You see, Border Collies (good working lines) have a strong instinct bred into them for herding. Without guiding this instinct and exercising the dog both physically and mentally, the dog will exercise itself, in ways you would really not be satisfied with. My Border Collie decided that jogging 3 miles in the morning and hiking in the evening for an additional mile (up and down rough terrain) wasn't enough. The tug-of-war playing and ball-herding also wasn't enough. She decided to chew up my expensive hiking and mountaineering boots, and proceeded to chew on the door frame of the entrance door to my house. She would jump UP on the kitchen counter (after having dragged a chair over, mind you) and help herself to whatever she could get into, which was safely tucked away (or so I thought) in the wall cabinets.

Although very frustrating, I only have myself to blame. I hadn't done my research, and after a few rounds of this, I signed us up for herding classes. She had already been through basic obedience, as I thought would be logical to do and helpful for any new dog and owner. Prior to owning her, I had a German Shepherd which was no where near as difficult as Embla (my Border Collie).

Hence the research began. I started getting in touch with many other Border Collie owners, breeders, and trainers. Nearly all of them told me that because she was from such working lines, I should take her through herding. What I found, is a new and enjoyable exercise for us both, and she was in her element, her world. I couldn't have been happier or more awed. She was born and built for it, and I had a new found interest. Many years later, I have her to thank for keeping me active and in shape.

But my point is, most people are not so intrepid to be the student of their new canine friend, learning how to handle them and bond together strongly so that both the dog and their owner can learn to live as one. There is SUCH a lack of education in pet ownership out there, that if breeders were as little educated (or less) than potential owners... well the resulting chaos would be unsettling. There are enough backyard breeders out there today, and it really is just as simple as letting the dogs go at it, doing their thing. Sure, you could have a litter, then sell the puppies to what you might consider to be good homes... only to learn later on (if you're lucky enough) that 80-90% of the placed puppies have either ended up at a local shelter, a rescue, or flat out been dropped off in the middle of no where. People should research breeds before deciding firmly on getting ONE individual of that breed. They should decide how well such a puppy fits into their lives AS WELL AS THEIR EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES. I can't stress that last part there, enough. SO many people get dogs and they end up becoming animated lawn ornaments that never leave their backyard, never have been on a walk, never get to come inside out of the rain, and are just tossed food from the back door while occasionally seeing their empty water bowl refilled.

These are our friends... please consider not just letting your dog 'go at it'. If you are truly interested in breeding, and passionate about not just YOUR dog but the amazing ancestral history it was born from, then spend several years with your dog and get to know him really well, take him through different types of training, sport, or work, and see what he excels at. Mentally stimulate him by taking him different places, doing different things. Salt water waves are very different than a placid lake. There's dock diving, agility, protection, SAR, and even just a constant traveling companion. The more you do with him, the more amazed you'll become, and the more you'll understand how and why these animals have come to be as they are today. Because caring people who devoted their lives and passion to developing this breed have recognized the outstanding qualities that few dogs can achieve, given the chance.

Another thought to consider. Many people think that owning the stud absolves them of any responsibility to the litter. For me, every litter that I contribute to is then partially my responsibility. I am sure that I am not going out on a limb if I say that any pup produced that is out of any reputable breeder's stud would feel an equal obligation. I know with certainty that if Ash, Judith, Deb, Megan or others bred to a female and then found a dog (or many dogs) out of the breeding in rescue, a shelter or unplacable by the bitch owner, they would take that dog/litter and make sure it was provided for.

As a stud dog owner, are you willing to take in your male's offspring at 5 weeks, 6 months or 8 years? Because any good breeder would.....and in fact insist on it. When Ash and I have paired up on a breeding (my female, her male) it was specifically in the contract that if any puppy was unable to stay in its original home, both she and I were to be notified before any action could be taken.

Hopefully owning a male does not mean simply owning a sperm donor.

I agree that is a terrible idea. There are TONS of BYBreeder's out there. Koda is a cutie and you love him, but he is not titled and has had some well~ behavioral moments.

They are all gorgeous. They are all so wonderful to us. But if you want another one, look into rescue. A really good breeder doesn't rack up the big bucks breeding puppies. They are selective. They spend money on the parents and pups, they take any returns and re-home them.

I can not even think of 10 friends/family that I could trust with the raising and care of a Dutch Shepherd. Can you?

i think breeders often play of "being god".. I think their job is really hard and the question i would ask myself before mating dogs is how i can do something to make my breed better? How you choose a dog who's gonna be mated? Health, at first place. Behaviour. Sport qualities. For example, here, the litter of my dog has given us almost two great dogs for sport, Great names in training across europe when they saw them said it's incredible. Hard bite. Natural quality dogs. High drive. Two of the strongest pups we saw in last 10years. But this is enough for me to think about breeding my dog? (not now of course). I would like to know what makes all of u thinking "this dog should have been used in breeding"

vneerland wrote:I have to agree with the points that Christie makes. But here is a job for you: List the reasons why we should all want a pup from Koda. You have another few years to work on his credentials. And maybe that makes breeding DS's harder than some other (pet-)breeds: The (working) expectations of the buyer, because with exception of a few for decoration only lovers, most expect to work their dogs in one way or another.

I agree with Christie, I was looking to see what is involved with breeding and I know it's a lot of work! As for why we should all want a pup, the question came about from people that I meet at the park really. A few state troopers who do the k9 handling unit asked me if I had plans for breeding him and I told them not really. The park here is a huge farm field and it's Koda's favorite place. I've been doing tracking with him which involved six 5 gallon Sheetrock buckets. The goal is for him to find the bucket with the bacon.. a lot of people like watching him work it. I also do a ball and retrieve with the buckets. I have him put the ball in a bucket then return to me for another ball and he will put it in the bucket with no ball.. then he needs to return all the balls. I've had several people ask me about breeding and service dogs that it had my mind wondering. I don't have the land to actually do a litter, if I do go that route I might purchase a female for him. I don't know yet, think it would kill me to give the pupps up.. the capacity as of right now isn't doable. Some day as I mention (5-6 years down the road).

Wow!!! I can't believe what I'm reading... Do you really think that some state troopers are going to buy puppies from you and pay you big $$$ just because your dog smells bacon in a bucket?? (this is not tracking BTW!!!)
Sorry... I'm French and I'm straight forward!

Frenchie85 wrote:Wow!!! I can't believe what I'm reading... Do you really think that some state troopers are going to buy puppies from you and pay you big $$$ just because your dog smells bacon in a bucket?? (this is not tracking BTW!!!)
Sorry... I'm French and I'm straight forward!

I'm Dutch , and I agree with you They need proof, hate to say it, but any DS puppy of 10 weeks old will sniff that bacon out in a bucket... I track with them at 6 weeks old to select which pup goes to whom...they all do that, and trust me, that does NOT make them suitable for police work, none of my dogs are suitable for that, even if they can do tracking, bitework and obedience. There are "levels" in that