Dutch Shepherd Forum

My husband took Stella and two of our sons to training tonight. (Usually we all go the trainer likes the kids to be involved and so do we, but I was too tired) anyway every session he has his 3 dogs there because socialization is a big part of Stella's training. I guess he asked my 8 year old son to go by his GSD (very sweet and extremely obedient dog) and hold his leash... the trainer then took Stella and my husband said she went absolutely insane trying to get at the other dog. My husband said he felt awful for her and didn't understand why he was doing that. Now if I were there I obviously would have asked what the purpose of doing this was but my husband did not.... Ill ask next week but wanted to know what you guys thought. My guess is he's trying to desensitize her to situations like this in a more controlled enviornmemt but I'm not sure. We are total softies with her (hard not to be she really doesn't misbehave at home) it's when we're out and she sees other dogs.

They worked on her stay command tonight too and she's doing very well!

My question wouldn't necessarily be "Why did he do it?' It would be, "What was the outcome of the situation?" If he was able to work her threw her fit and get better behavior after her temper tantrum, then it was probably beneficial. If she won by freaking out, then she learned to freak out when your kids are around other dogs. I think I would need to see the whole picture.

My husband said she calmed down some but did not stop barking until the other dog went away from our son... he was correcting her using the prong collar

I agree with Christie on this one. I also feel, that as a trainer, he should have been more upfront with your family about what the situation would entitle, and how it was beneficial to the training program. After all, a trainer is really there to help you, as the owner, build a relationship with the dog and continue training on your own in the future.

If your husband feels awful for the dog and doesn't understand something, he needs to speak up. Everyone in the family does so they can better apply it in the future. It's one thing to have a trainer train your dog, but if you don't know how to continue the work at home, or even what situations he thinks need the improvement, she's not working towards her full potential.

I'm not saying you should question his every action, I would just remind him that you're new dog owners and need to better understand the overall goal of the program. It sounds like Stella is making great progress so far with you guys and can really excel if her training is continued after class with everyone.

can you video the training sessions for us to see?

Lisa I can do that with my iPhone next week when he does something like that. Ill also ask him about it. He's really a nice guy and I respect him a lot I simply don't understand what's going on sometimes.

I would tell him just that, and ask him if it is possible for him to briefly/simplified explain what he is about to do/achieve with Stella. If you start understanding things, it will also be easier for him to do his job, since you can then work together on it

I always asked a gazillion questions, the more you know the better you will understand. If you take a video then It may be easier for us to help with some questions.

Yeah I'll definitely ask him... and take video. I'm totally not trying to discredit him just wanting to understand. We like to be involved in every aspect of Stella's training so I'm sure he won't mind my questions! I just want her dog aggression/anxiety to be handled properly (and not made worse) I'd love for her to be able to play with other dogs or at least be able to go to the dog park. Right now I even worry when I'm walking her that another dog will approach her (there is a boxer that is always roaming loose in the neighborhood) She's so obedient in every other way so I know with proper technique this can be fixed!

katm4110 wrote: I'd love for her to be able to play with other dogs or at least be able to go to the dog park.

Be careful of dog parks. They're full of under exercised dogs and owners that don't pay attention to their dogs' behavior and training. I've accompanied many friends to parks, and most of the time it's a huge free for all. I used to get disappointed thinking that Odin would never be social enough for a dog park, and then I realized I wouldn't want to set him up for failure like that anyway. New dogs are coming in all the time and some dogs just don't mesh in that environment. After visiting quite a few dog parks, I would never take any of my own dogs to one, regardless of their personality/training level.

I find the best experience if you're looking for doggie playtime is finding other owners that you trust and setting up play dates with a few dogs that can be introduced properly. Odin has weekly play sessions with 2 malinois that belong to a friend of mine. They have similar play styles and we can grab coffee or snacks and bring it to the field and catch up on what's happened in our lives over the week while the dogs play. He's exhausted and I'm not constantly worrying who he's playing with and if the other owners are around.

Stephanie what a great point! I've seen a lot of irresponsible dog owners and can imagine a dog park would be full of them! I guess I had this image in my head of a beautiful park with dogs frolicking around sniffing each others behinds and playing frisbee!

Once Stella can play nice with others she will be doing the group obedience classes (with current trainer) so hopefully we'll make some friends there!

I didnt mean that sharing the video would be discrediting your trainer. Im thinking that for your questions, so others can see what you mean.

I do NOT go to dog parks anymore. Thalie is fine, she is so non aggressive and her fuse is so long, that she is enjoyable at a dog park, she would bee-line to the stream and just want to fetch the ball. But hardly any one else there knows scratch about training, even enough to have good recalls or understand that all of the dogs think the park is theirs and get possessive of the space and any toy. Dogs would steal her ball and the owners wouldnt do anything, Thalie wouldnt care but I think that is so rude of the owners. The dogs run free and annoy other dogs and nothing is done. I started bringing Sadie there and would stay way out on the edge just to get her over to the water where no one else would be. Dogs would come running over and the owners thought it was cute that their dogs wont leave mine alone, Sadie was getting mad and they were laughing, but I was the bad one because I oppened my mouth and told them I did NOT think this was funny and to control their dogs, Mine were in a controlled sit while theirs were running around avoiding being caught. So, off my soap box. Your better off just walking in town and not worrying about play dates with the dogs.

The unfortunate reality is that the desire to "play" and hang out with strange dogs is a role that humans have created and tried to put dogs into. Some conform and do actually enjoy it. Many do not.

Think of wild canids. Do they welcome strange newcomers into their territory? In my opinion, it is not something that you can teach them to enjoy, just something that you can teach them to endure. My dogs are not allowed to react aggressively, even if provoked (that doesn't always work for me....but mostly). They are expected to tolerate other dogs and maintain themselves under control. Basically I use obedience to keep everyone tidy. They greatly enjoy their interactions with their own canine family. But newcomers are only tolerated for quite a while.

Think about this too. You want her to have a defensive display to make unwelcome people think twice. Suspicion is not a bad thing in that case. So why would new people have different rules than new dogs? You decide if they are OK or not, but then neutral behavior during greetings should be the expected result.

The reality is, the breed of dog that you got has been bred for many generations to be a protection guardian first. Its great that she is social and has fit right in. But I don't think its fair to expect her to be "welcoming" of new comers - regardless of species. I would shoot for obedient and under control, followed by chosen indifference....and if she does hit it off with a dog or two, then follow Barbara's advice about small play dates with known dogs. In the end though, she may just be most content with your family as her "pack" and not ever want interaction with other dogs. That doesn't mean you can't expect controlled behavior. But then it will be your job to protect her from those social retards ("hey, hey. Can we be best friends. Can I run up to your face and then sniff your butt and be all rude in dog language") and simply handle the situations as they come. If she handles them for you, in an appropriate dog way (my rule is, if there's no blood, its OK), then all the better.

Dutchringgirl wrote:I didnt mean that sharing the video would be discrediting your trainer. Im thinking that for your questions, so others can see what you mean.

I do NOT go to dog parks anymore. Thalie is fine, she is so non aggressive and her fuse is so long, that she is enjoyable at a dog park, she would bee-line to the stream and just want to fetch the ball. But hardly any one else there knows scratch about training, even enough to have good recalls or understand that all of the dogs think the park is theirs and get possessive of the space and any toy. Dogs would steal her ball and the owners wouldnt do anything, Thalie wouldnt care but I think that is so rude of the owners. The dogs run free and annoy other dogs and nothing is done. I started bringing Sadie there and would stay way out on the edge just to get her over to the water where no one else would be. Dogs would come running over and the owners thought it was cute that their dogs wont leave mine alone, Sadie was getting mad and they were laughing, but I was the bad one because I oppened my mouth and told them I did NOT think this was funny and to control their dogs, Mine were in a controlled sit while theirs were running around avoiding being caught. So, off my soap box. Your better off just walking in town and not worrying about play dates with the dogs.

I took my nephew ONCE to one of those indoor climbing structure, kid places. It was the exact same mentality. I sat there stressing every minute that he was not in my sight. The parents were all by the coffee bar chatting, and I was running around picking up crying kids who couldn't find their "mommy" or "daddy." Literally screaming for them, and no one taking notice.

Can't do it with kids. Can't do it with dogs. LOL. Way to stressful for me

Dutchringgirl wrote:I didnt mean that sharing the video would be discrediting your trainer. Im thinking that for your questions, so others can see what you mean.

Oh I didn't think that's what you meant at all. Honestly you all know more about this breed then my trainer and I really value your opinions. I am always taking pictures during training he won't even notice me video taping anything!

Christie M wrote:The unfortunate reality is that the desire to "play" and hang out with strange dogs is a role that humans have created and tried to put dogs into. Some conform and do actually enjoy it. Many do not.


Think about this too. You want her to have a defensive display to make unwelcome people think twice. Suspicion is not a bad thing in that case. So why would new people have different rules than new dogs? You decide if they are OK or not, but then neutral behavior during greetings should be the expected result.

The reality is, the breed of dog that you got has been bred for many generations to be a protection guardian first. Its great that she is social and has fit right in. But I don't think its fair to expect her to be "welcoming" of new comers - regardless of species.

Glad you mentioned this Christie. I guess I think of Stella too much like one of my kids and need to remember she's a dog! That takes a lot of pressure off of me though, if her playing with other dogs doesn't matter to her it sure as heck doesn't matter to me!

I'll be happy when she can pass by another dog with out freaking out or getting overly anxious. She loves her walks and I always worry about an unleashed dog approaching her. Knowing that I can handle her in a situation like that is my ultimate goal.

You're right... I can't expect her to "play" with other dogs... If she finds she likes to or decides she wants to... awesome! If not it doesn't affect me! She loves being at home with her family.... and like you said she'a been bred to work and be protective.... thanks for explaining things like this.... I feel a lot better now that I understand this!

Christie, awesome points, of course. Dogs are herd animals and their pack is their pack, thats it. I have found plenty of other quiet places with trails and water to play, and when I run into another dog and person their, they are always polite and control their dog until we pass. But once in a while I will still get the person who lets their dog loose to check mine and THEN say "are they friendly " ......NO !

Laura, yes, just work on controlling your own dog. When I am being approached, ill pull of to the side and put the girls into a sit and wait. I wont hesitate to open my mouth if I see a bad situation about to happen and I dont care how much of a jerk I appear to be to the other person, 2 dutchies vs poodle??? Id rather be a jerk then have blood.

I find in town is better, the dogs MUST be leashed, then you can work on the obedience part and just getting her to be able to sit while another dog passes. I have a large green in town where I can park in the middle with them and then get closer and closer to the path.

katm4110 wrote: I'll be happy when she can pass by another dog with out freaking out or getting overly anxious. She loves her walks and I always worry about an unleashed dog approaching her. Knowing that I can handle her in a situation like that is my ultimate goal.

I so wish I was closer - as does probably every trainer on this forum!! I'm glad you are making successes. I just wish they were a little faster coming. LOL. I would bet, literally bet, that if I could get you to just let go of your leash during a temper tantrum, and let her greet without the pressure and tension, she would probably be fine. Probably. But you could try it if you condition her to a basket muzzle. Then she couldn't hurt anyone. I have just seen WAY too many over stimulated Dutch Shepherds who have no malice intent. They just have bad social skills. We have 7 Dutch Shepherds, a mastiff mix and 2 Frenchies. We have had countless rescues through our home. Yet I have not had a dog fight since 1997 (the incident that got me into dogs in the first place). I'm not saying that there aren't dog aggressive DS out there. There most certainly are. But most of it is just frustration and over stimulation.

How about a road trip to TN??? LOL.

Christie M wrote:

katm4110 wrote: But you could try it if you condition her to a basket muzzle. Then she couldn't hurt anyone.

This is my favorite part of introductions. I slap my baskerville muzzle on (love the rubber black ones) and Odin charges, hits the dog with his head, and then rolls on his back. Everytime.

He's such a big baby and makes a huge show on leash and then I give him freedom to actually meet a dog and he wimps out.

In case you want a little encouragement, this is Odin's story before we adopted him.
http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewt ... +of+rescue

This is him a few months ago with one of his play date friends:

Christie M wrote:
How about a road trip to TN??? LOL.

after checking out your website I'd definitely consider it if I don't have any luck with trainers in this area! I'm in Springfield, IL so it's really not too far

will be asking about a cage muzzle at Sunday's session! I keep in touch with the volunteer from the shelter in Oklahoma who saw all of Stella's potential and got her to the German shepherd rescue in my area. She told me Stella was in a play group with several smaller dogs at one of the foster homes there and did fine. The woman at the rescue here in IL didn't have her very long (the puppy we were interested in got adopted so she said hey I just got this super sweet dutch shepherd that I think would be great with kids come check her out, and I almost didn't! but didn't want to be rude and cancel my appt with her at the last minute... talk about fate!) any way she described Stella as just being "barky" around her dogs (gsd's and mals... she operates a SAR as well) so I know that Stella CAN behave herself with other dogs but I'm just not willing to chance it unless I have a trained professional right there guiding me.




Stephanie I just looked at the link about Odin... WOW. He was so close to being put down! How is he now with small children? Im guessing by your picture that hes over his dog aggression! That's just amazing that you took this on, and have had so much success with him! We're so lucky that Stella came to us just as sweet and humble as she could be the only issue with her is other animals. If Odin can overcome what he did I know Stella can!

it would be so great to have a get together time, so we could bring our critters and help each other !