Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hi,
I am new to the forum and just posted on the new members but I'm looking for some support and ideas on my dog, Darby's aggression problems. I got him as a rescue when he was a puppy and he had some aggression issues with dogs and people from the beginning. He is a mix, I'm pretty sure ds and maybe lab? He looks like a large ds and has pretty much total ds characteristics. Anyway, I really had no idea what I was doing for the first year of his life and treated him like other pet dogs I had had in the past. As his aggression got worse, I realized this was not working and got help from a great trainer in the Bay Area, CA where I lived. With a lot of work on my part I got him to see me as the leader, adhere to commands, even under high pressure situations, and got him to have much better in house manners using correction, tie downs, and a down stay and wait command. I could have strangers over that he would tolerate and he was not aggressive with people he new.

I've moved in the last month to Portland, OR and have a new boyfriend and Darby's aggression is back with a vengeance. He had a good relationship with my boyfriend before I moved and expected that to continue in the new house, but he has now attacked him on several occasions. He still enjoys going on walks with him, will come up to be pet, and will play ball with him, but at random times he turns and attacks. The first time he was dead asleep, heard a noise, and woke up in attack mode, going for my boyfriend and had to be pulled off. I decided this might be just a transition and was just more cautious. Since then it has happened two more times, once he was entering the house and Darby had already greeted him and as he walked to the couch, Darby attacked. Last night, after my boyfriend took him on a walk, played fetch with him, and petted him in the kitchen, Darby attacked as he was walking into the living room. It started as jumping up and then escalated into a serious attack, my boyfriend had to go to the hospital and get stitches in his arm.

I'm really upset by this new behavior and worried, especially because I need to get roommates into my new house to afford my mortgage and I don't want him hurting anyone! Right now I am going to use his tie down and then muzzle him when anyone else is around. And then of course, give him exercise and work time. But I am considering re-homing him too, somewhere he can do an actual job or serve in a protection role because I am realizing it just may be impossible to have him as a house dog and don't want him to have a poor quality of life or have to put him down. I am frustrated and a little at my whit's end, but I also still want to work with him and would like to incorporate other work and training. Any suggestions or just support would help!!! Thanks!!!

OH no ! Can you watch really close for any triggers? You said once he was sound asleep then woke and attacked. Can you tell the other triggers? This is beyond me though. My advice would be to make sure other people are always fun and have goodies and are seen as treat machines. But I dont know if that is accurate. There are some real smarties on here.

I can usually tell his triggers for aggression but this time I can't...that's the problem. I use treats with strangers but have noticed that when he gets a lot of treats from people he already knows he tends to get demanding and dominant with them, which can lead to aggression. Thanks for the advice!

I see. wow. i have no idea. Sorry I cant be of more help.

Well, as you realize, you have a serious problem with Darby.

Shame on you; he had to bite your boyfriend three times and end up sending him for stitches before you decided to make sure he wears a muzzle around people? I don't know how the animal control laws work in OR, but here in VA, your dog would be in quarantine for at least 10 days after biting someone, and when someone goes to the ER for stitches, they have to report the bite.

Also, you said that even when you felt you had the aggression under control, that he still was only really safe (in your estimation) when around people he knew.

None of this bodes well for his future.

I don't think you can rehome him easily; rehoming a dog that bites is illegal in many places, and immoral in most. I don't think you should think about rehoming him as some kind of protection dog; he has no protection training, and is not under control, which are very important in the protection dog world. It's not like "he needs room to run" so you try to rehome a dog to a rural situation. "He likes to bite people," so you try to rehome him as a personal protection dog? Not gonna happen.

In the dog world, things boil down to management and training. Some issues are management issues, like keeping dogs separated that don't get along. Others are training issues, and some are a bit of both.

In this case, the management part is something you are going to have to be religious about; this dog gets no chance to bite anyone else, period. Including your boyfriend. What does that mean? When he's not in a crate, he needs to be muzzled (make sure you have a good one that he can drink and open his mouth with it on, and that's fitted properly), and he should sleep in a crate and be crated when he can't be DIRECTLY supervised. What does directly supervised mean? Eyes on him when he's not crated, peroid. You're not on your phone, or otherwise not paying direct attention to him and what he's doing. If you can't be focused on him, then he's crated. He should wear a dragline when he's not crated, too.

I'm not familiar with tie downs, so I'm not able to comment on that as a training technique or tool to manage him (it sounds like he's tethered in a down position, but again, I've never heard of this). However, you definintely need to work with a solid trainer who has experience with aggressive dogs. You need to work on counter-conditioning and desensitization, and you need to always be in control of this dog, period. He absolutely needs to listen to you.

I'm sorry if this isn't the kind of support you were seeking. This situation definitely sucks, but it is what it is. You are smart to recognize that you can't turn other people into treat machines for him. This is way beyond that kind of thing, and I'm glad you see that already.

One thing I've always believed, and I don't know who originally said this, but dogs have the facts, we only have opinions. Sometimes it can help to understand why a dog is behaving a certain way, but many times, we can't know those answers. What we can do is control their behavior. This dog is going to be a life-long management issue for you, and it sounds like he's fairly young (two-ish, something like that?). You need to step up to that plate, I'm afraid. No excuses, no exceptons.

You may also want to get him assessed by someone who really knows that they're doing with aggressive dogs (not always that easy to find); assessing over the internet is a fool's game .

Again, I am unfamiliar with the laws in your state, but you may be this dog's only chance. I hope you will find someone to get a good assessment of him, but meantime, do lots of obedience and keep up with that kind of training (a dog is never finished...training always has to be maintained of you lose it), make sure he gets enough exercise, and take no chances with him around anyone, anytime.

Good luck!

never did see any pics of Darby beyond the thumbnail you have, so with that caveat in mind, I will say what I hinted at in your new member intro that I see no reason to believe that Darby is anything but a full-bred DS, despite what a shelter might have said.

I start there because DS [ and Malinois ] are so different from other dogs - even very different from GSD's. relating to them and training them effectively requires strategies that are different from the way most people relate to and train dogs [ especially with ones - which is most of them - that are very high-drive, very strong-willed, or troubled because of wrong-headed training or worse ]. I use the word 'relate' because if a very smart DS is simply treated as a pet, no matter how good that treatment is, it will not be enough to satisfy the emotional and intellectual needs of a DS and then a DS literally becomes fundamentally unhappy and angry. the problems now have some historical roots, but their re-emergence with intensity suggests to me that - in addition to uncertainty and disruption of bf and location changes - Darby may perceive his quality of life to have diminished. [ not enough real QUALITY time with you is the most likely source of anger in that regard.]

now obviously, you now have a bigger problem than that. but if there is some way that he has been slighted [ from his point of view as a real member of the family and NOT a pet], then correcting that condition/perception [ making him feel very happy and very secure - probably quality time with you that is very personal and intense ] is probably a PREREQUISITE for any success in other endeavors with him a la Leih's advice and suggestions.

I do not want to contradict what Leih said in anyway, but maybe why you came here is that you correctly perceived that you need a crash-course in DS-specific behavior/thinking. I believe if you and Darby are to find any happy ending that you need to more fully understand DSs in general. I am sure there are many reasons why that is good, but you have an urgent situation and need help, so there are 2 critical reasons for learning about what makes DS tick and how they can be different: 1] for any success at all, he needs to be happy and 2] you need a fighting chance of determining what trainers, what approaches may improve the situation [ where some trainers or suggested remedies may make it worse!].

so while following Leih's advice, read all you can on here - going back in time. jewels of wisdom are not always where you might expect to find them. threads of conversation morph. look here in behavior, but also in ''whatever'', then everywhere else. and since your situation is urgent, you might want to look at the profiles of certain people WHERE YOU CAN CLICK TO PULL UP EVERYTHING THOSE MEMBERS HAVE SAID. THAT IS A GOOD SHORT CUT FOR FINDING VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ADVICE tho again you can find pearls of wisdom almost everywhere here. for training and behavior correction you need to look to the experts and professionals. I am relatively new here [ and not one of those experts ] so I can offer only a few members' names that come to mind without looking [ and hopefully I am new enough that no one will be offended by my choices/lack of good memory]: leih merigian, Christie M, lyons family.....there are others I would recommend but not in my head right now. start with these members and search their posts to gain insight and pick up other info on the way.

good luck making him happy and well-behaved.

one more thing: in a posting several months ago, Christie M recommended www.bowwowflix.com to someone. it works just like Netflix [by mail], but the dvd's are dog-training videos [ which are generally very, very expensive]. I have not tried it but plan to start now because I told a very knowledgeable friend about it and she loves it - finds it very useful.
not having looked at it myself, I do not know how curated their inventory is. but lets assume it is not curated. you would need to choose dvd's from those people who have great reputations with the people here on this site, but I think that would be easy. there are a few trainers/behaviorists that have truly great insights, methods, and the reputations that come along with that; you can find many references to these people in the conversations here [ again I cannot remember names ], but unless one of these people lives and works in Portland, you would avail yourself of a level of insight that might otherwise be unavailable from even a good local trainer. I am not advising this INSTEAD of local, professional help, but as an added resource that could be helpful in multiple and invaluable ways. also, watching an interesting dvd together with your bf might be possible and help both of you to find understanding and solutions.

Some added thoughts, you may want to consult with your vet as well. The sudden behavior changes may be solely related to the stress and upheaval of moving, or it could possibly be a thyroid or endocrine or some other disorder that has surfaced. I think it might be worth discussing with your vet and possibly doing a workup to rule out some hidden, underlying medical cause for the sudden increase in over-the-top aggression. It may be something that, if left unchecked, won't be able to be helped by training alone, or, if ruled out, will then reassure you that it is a training issue and not something that may be helped medically.

You mentioned the bf is relatively new and that you've recently moved... Though you had a relationship with him before and he and Darby seemed to get along okay.

Had the boyfriend been living with you before or no, and is this new house your first time actually living together?

The combination of stress of moving, and needing to freshly establish himself in a new territory, and newly determine where exactly "his turf" is and what his new role is, coupled with suddenly having "new competition" in the form of your bf could be factors.

If your boyfriend was only a frequent "guest" before, but not actually living with you, Darby tolerated him better, and now, suddenly living together (IF I'm assuming the arrangements right? I don't know your sitiuation,) Darby sees him as more of a usurper of his position in the house and competition, as opposed to a "guest" that must be politely tolerated but then leaves him in peace when he goes home.

Just throwing out what-ifs, but as Leih pointed out, this is something that you need to get a handle on ASAP.

I would definitley consult with the vet for any potential medical factors and regardless of whether there are or are not answers there, also find and work with a reputable trainer who has experience and ability with aggressive cases.

Best of luck!

This is something very hard to get and give advice from/for over the internet. There are so many tiny things that can be a trigger and both you and your boyfriend's handling/approach skills will need to be considered as well. I think Leih touched on pretty much everything, and you need to get a trainer in there ASAP that can see things first hand.

This dog is going to take a life long commitment from you and is frankly going to be sometimes a burden to manage and it's not something you'll ever be completely done with. It's going to take constant work. You're always going to need to be cautious, have a muzzle in a lot of situations, keep him from strangers, etc. Even if the dog appears fine and completely trained, part of being a responsible pet owner is making sure you don't set the dog up for failure.

I'm surprised the dog doesn't have a bite record with the county when it has attacked someone 3 times. Odin has one, we did a required quarantine and everything, for taking a treat too hard from an elderly neighbor and tearing skin. I told the man to go to the hospital on my dime just to be sure he was ok, so we had to fill out an Animal Control report as well.

You'll always have to be cautious from here on out. The dog is muzzled or caged when company is over, period. If the boyfriend is going to become a fixed figure in your household, then you need a trainer that can get all of you working together and establishing new household rules and boundaries and both you and the boyfriend need to both be on the same page about making it work and financially being able to pay for private lessons.

I would be very very cautious bringing roommates in to this situation. You'll have to find ones that understand the dangers of this dog, and you'll also have to make sure they are willing to participate in the management part of raising the dog that Leih was talking about. IF they ever have guests over (and what housemate wouldn't) you're going to have to have extra management in that case as well.

You'll also have to consider quality of life in this case. If the dog can't be around strangers, and your house always has the boyfriend/roommates/friends over, how long is the dog going to be caged every day? Is it even going to get the amount of exercised needed to not develop more problems?

karreng2 wrote:I can usually tell his triggers for aggression but this time I can't...that's the problem. I use treats with strangers but have noticed that when he gets a lot of treats from people he already knows he tends to get demanding and dominant with them, which can lead to aggression. Thanks for the advice!

Dog - man dominance theory is debunked.
Also, pinning on the floor, "I'm the man" - Ceasar Milan type "training" (aka molesting) is outdated and wrong.

Your dog has some serious issues, and needs to be valuated and trained by a positive reinforcement trainer who has experience with aggresive dogs.

How are things going with Darby ?
I see you haven't posted in a while so hope that's a good thing.
I agree with all the other posters, this is a very SERIOUS issue you have with your boy.
Obviously you are aware of this as you are reaching out for help.
As I'm not too far from you, please let me know if you haven't yet found a suitable trainer to help and I'll network with my family of working dog friends to see what is available in your neck of the woods

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned, and should be as you've had issues since puppyhood.
*Some* dogs aren't wired right and can never be trustworthy, even with their family. Just something to throw out there to think about. *Some* dogs cann't be retrained to be safe and trustworthy members of society ( if wired wrong ). *If* he is one of those dogs you'll need to think long and hard about what to do for the future. Strict management ( as several posters have already mentioned ) , crate , muzzle etc at all times. Even then, is it worth it ? Can you guarentee you won't slip up and get lax in the protocol ? Have a roommate/friend/boyfriend/family member cut corners and not follow the strict management techniques. He's already ( in your words ) shown himself to be unpredictable.
Getting roomate(s) with a dog with a known bite history will be hard, and very risky.
If he were to bite one of them, would they sue you ?
You mention having a morgage, insurance companies are getting quicker and quicker to drop homeowners from their policies that have dogs that have bitten ( no matter what the breed or mix ).
I don't want to sound so negative, as I really want you and Darby to make a big turn around to become super examples of a dog/person team. Hopefully as you haven't posted in a while that's already happening
Just wanted to share some other things to think about.
Again, if I can be of help, as we're not too far apart, please let me know.

All have posted very good advice. The only thing I can ad about training is that, when a dog is muzzled you won't be consumed with saving the victim of the attack and can concentrate on training and behavior modification right at the moment of the wrong behavior.

One quest ion that hasn't been asked...Is Darby happy? Can he lead a quality life if he's muzzled and caged most of the time? Can he be happy if he's surrounded by emotional tension and fear?

There's a very good book by an author named, I think, John Katz. It's about his many years trying to rehabilitate a rescued Border Collie with unexplained aggression issues much like Darby. He went so far as to buying a farm and a herd of sheep, employing trainers, vets, animal psychologists, and animal communicators. After years of work with this dog, he finally accepted that the dog was deep down, never going to find peace. Something inside him would always torture him into his aggression. He finally, with a very heavy heart, put the dog down.

We are all dog lovers here and we are all disgusted by the stupid waste of life we see in the world of unwanted animals but sometimes letting go is the right choice. It takes bravery and compassion both for the dog and the people around him. My heart goes out to you.