Dutch Shepherd Forum

I have looked through past post and haven't found anything specific to this situation so...here goes:

A few days ago my husband and my neighbor's 3 yr old son (Alex) were wrestling around in the floor and lots of squealing was going on, everything was going fine until Havok came into the mix. He started by nosing Alex and then proceeded to nip him. Very small nips that did not break the skin but did raise welts. As soon as it happened my husband told him no, rolled him over onto his back and kept him there. He submitted easily. Did it happen out of excitement or was it a form of aggression? And, more importantly, how do I stop it?

As a general rule Havok shows no aggression towards people nor any true interest when they enter the house. He smells them and then goes about his business, we have noticed he is a little mouthy when he plays but try to correct it whenever he does it. He has nipped me during play and I am currently stopping play and getting him to roll over and stay there until he is calm. Should I try another tactic?

A little background: The only time I have seen him show remotely aggressive behavior towards a person was at a crowded event when a man almost backed over my neighbor's dog and Alex. Havok was, at the time, calmly laying at my feet and came up suddenly with an aggressive bark. He responded immediately when I tightened the leash and told him to lay back down and everything was fine. I did not look too much into it because I figured he was just letting the guy know to back off before he stepped on the child. He had no other problems with the close proximity of the crowd that day.

I have noticed when small children run away he is a heel nipper but we experienced the same issue with our Border Collie and I know how to resolve that. Due to his prior living conditions, I am almost positive he was not socialized properly with children. My neighbor (who is a zoologist and has worked with several species of large aggressive animals ranging from bears to lions) does not think he was properly socialized with dogs either as he reacts aggressively towards unaltered males as well and does not seem to know how to behave when they submit (something I hope neutering will help resolve). I'm not sure if that tidbit is relevant to the issue at hand or not I just want to get everything I can think of about his nature out there.

TIA

((I tend to reply with more information or questions, I don't want that to be misconstrued as I am not taking advice...just seeking more. ))

AFronhei wrote:A few days ago my husband and my neighbor's 3 yr old son (Alex) were wrestling around in the floor and lots of squealing was going on, everything was going fine until Havok came into the mix. He started by nosing Alex and then proceeded to nip him. Very small nips that did not break the skin but did raise welts. As soon as it happened my husband told him no, rolled him over onto his back and kept him there. He submitted easily. Did it happen out of excitement or was it a form of aggression? And, more importantly, how do I stop it?

In my opinion this is just normal pack behavior. From Havoc's point of view your husband was tackling an outside pack member and Havoc just joined in. It is probably tough for a dog to distinguish if its just play or something serious. I wouldn't do the roughhousing in front of a dog.

AFronhei wrote:As a general rule Havok shows no aggression towards people nor any true interest when they enter the house. He smells them and then goes about his business, we have noticed he is a little mouthy when he plays but try to correct it whenever he does it. He has nipped me during play and I am currently stopping play and getting him to roll over and stay there until he is calm. Should I try another tactic?

Rolling him over for nipping during play is a bit harsh in my opinion. I would only use the "roll over" as a last resort when there is a serious infraction like a handler bite. Stopping the play, as you already do, and ignoring him for a while, should get the message through. They are so smart, they figure it out very fast. But always trying to push the limits, I know.

AFronhei wrote:A little background: The only time I have seen him show remotely aggressive behavior towards a person was at a crowded event when a man almost backed over my neighbor's dog and Alex. Havok was, at the time, calmly laying at my feet and came up suddenly with an aggressive bark. He responded immediately when I tightened the leash and told him to lay back down and everything was fine. I did not look too much into it because I figured he was just letting the guy know to back off before he stepped on the child. He had no other problems with the close proximity of the crowd that day.

Good job, Havoc ! They tend to step up if we don't, consciously or unconsciously. We have to be good leaders or they will take over.............

Schlussdibusti wrote:
Rolling him over for nipping during play is a bit harsh in my opinion. I would only use the "roll over" as a last resort when there is a serious infraction like a handler bite. Stopping the play, as you already do, and ignoring him for a while, should get the message through. They are so smart, they figure it out very fast. But always trying to push the limits, I know.

He got rolled because we didn't know how serious the injury was at the time. The child screamed bloody murder and it took a few moments to sort out. So we did it as a "better safe than sorry" approach. If it had been me he had done it to I would have taken a different approach. Looking back, I would tend to agree but hindsight is 20/20.

We get him to roll over a lot during the day so we can play with his feet, nose, ears, etc. since they didn't really handle him once he got big enough to be banished from the house. :/ He generally enjoys it and wiggles about on his back. That was only the 2nd time he's been rolled as "punishment" since he's been here. The first time he marked the wall so it was done to establish my husband as the dominant and the only one "allowed" to pee on walls (don't worry he doesn't! lol). He hasn't done it since and that was the end of his attempted coupe for pack leader, so it was well worth it. lol. Don't want you to think we over do it though.

He's a good boy.

AFronhei wrote:Don't want you to think we over do it though.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your writing. I thought he gets rolled over for nipping you at play based on the below.

AFronhei wrote: He has nipped me during play and I am currently stopping play and getting him to roll over and stay there until he is calm.

AFronhei wrote:
my husband as the dominant and the only one "allowed" to pee on walls (don't worry he doesn't! lol).

Oh! I meant that I get him to roll over so he'll put his head in my lap and calm down It's his "chill out" pose. If he just goes into down he's still alert and thinks we're going to play more. If I tell him to roll over he'll roll over and then lay on his side. I guess I should have explained that better.

yes, I agree with Eva re ''Good job, Havoc!'' for his aggressive bark which he did because no one else was alert to a guy about to step on a child. my action there would have been an effusive ''good boy'' combined with reassuring ''good boy'' touch, followed by some version of ''it's ok'' that says to the dog, ''thank you, now we see the problem, and it's under control''. [ for my dog, I would literally say ''thank you'' - to which he would give a grin and a wag that said 'you are welcome'' - and give treat if available.] for other situations, there were ways of telling the dog exactly what follow-up was needed, like the translated equivalent of ''ok, I see it, now wait and stay vigilant.''

I also agree in principal on no rough-housing in front of him. he is VERY new to you; there is no way he should be able to figure out what is real danger and what is fake danger, even with a neighbor. it seems to me his response was very measured. even with time, rough-housing might not be wise, but I said ''in principle'' because with my dog who was very stable and very perceptive, I would proceed to let him witness additional rough-housing as long as he was restrained [ in a loving manner ] by one of his trusted family members who would along with everyone else tell him by tone, by reassuring words to him, and by demonstration that this is a fun and acceptable activity. if he seemed stressed by this, I would stop and not let him witness. also, you need [ as you may already] to name nipping and/or biting for him. if he knew the word for nip, then as he was watching the rough-housing from a distance and being whispered fun tone about it, he could also be told gently ''no nip'', ''no nipping''. but, of course, he has to know the meaning. if my dog bites me or anything else, even in ways I want, I name it. [ ''oh, you going to BITE me'' -- all in play] I want him to learn all language that could be relevant. it makes it much easier to communicate about that activity -- when it is ok, but hurts, when it is not ok, when he should,etc. then these potential problems get down to the dog's judgment and impulse control, as opposed to the dog just guessing about what is allowed and what is not.

it sounds so far to me like HAVOC has great judgment and with some encouraging guidance can develop that more and add greater levels of restraint where appropriate. of course, you need to be very vigilant til you know him better and he knows his family and surroundings better. but if he were my dog, I would be extremely proud of how he managed BOTH of the situations you described - that the rough-housing nip was not worse [ or much worse !] and that the aggressive warning was absolutely perfectly executed - an urgent warning but no more action at that instant [ he could have easily bitten the guy first or second, but chose not to - showing great judgment in multiple ways !]. tell him 24 hours a day what a good job he is doing when he is not doing something bad - and in Havoc's case, it sounds like he deserves such praise.

NOTE: on the subject of letting Havoc watch a little more rough-housing on the terms I described here, I would personally [ and for Havoc's sake ] and truly appreciate if Eva, or another greater expert than I, would comment on whether this is ok/wise or whether it is simply a daft and stupid idea.

Schlussdibusti wrote:

AFronhei wrote:
my husband as the dominant and the only one "allowed" to pee on walls (don't worry he doesn't! lol).

So glad to hear your husband is housebroken!

yes, I agree with Eva re ''Good job, Havoc!'' for his aggressive bark which he did because no one else was alert to a guy about to step on a child. my action there would have been an effusive ''good boy'' combined with reassuring ''good boy'' touch, followed by some version of ''it's ok'' that says to the dog, ''thank you, now we see the problem, and it's under control''. [ for my dog, I would literally say ''thank you'' - to which he would give a grin and a wag that said 'you are welcome'' - and give treat if available.] for other situations, there were ways of telling the dog exactly what follow-up was needed, like the translated equivalent of ''ok, I see it, now wait and stay vigilant.

I definitely let him know he had done right and reassured him that everything was fine now. He got the guy's attention VERY rapidly, along with everyone else in the crowds, lol.

I also agree in principal on no rough-housing in front of him. he is VERY new to you; there is no way he should be able to figure out what is real danger and what is fake danger, even with a neighbor. it seems to me his response was very measured. even with time, rough-housing might not be wise, but I said ''in principle'' because with my dog who was very stable and very perceptive, I would proceed to let him witness additional rough-housing as long as he was restrained [ in a loving manner ] by one of his trusted family members who would along with everyone else tell him by tone, by reassuring words to him, and by demonstration that this is a fun and acceptable activity. if he seemed stressed by this, I would stop and not let him witness. also, you need [ as you may already] to name nipping and/or biting for him. if he knew the word for nip, then as he was watching the rough-housing from a distance and being whispered fun tone about it, he could also be told gently ''no nip'', ''no nipping''. but, of course, he has to know the meaning. if my dog bites me or anything else, even in ways I want, I name it. [ ''oh, you going to BITE me'' -- all in play] I want him to learn all language that could be relevant. it makes it much easier to communicate about that activity -- when it is ok, but hurts, when it is not ok, when he should,etc. then these potential problems get down to the dog's judgment and impulse control, as opposed to the dog just guessing about what is allowed and what is not.

I'll work on the "no bite" command. He is fairly good at picking up tone and meaning, in fact, he is the most perceptive dog I've ever personally owned. When we brought him home I jokingly told him to go get in the bathtub and he went and got in without any prompting. We have personally pushed him with just the adults to see if we could get the same reaction without any "luck." I think it was a combination of squealing child and excitement. I think what was suggested was a great idea. It's what I've been doing as far as the cat is concerned and seems to be working. For some reason I just did not think to apply it to this situation.


...and just as a side note, the misspell of his name was purposeful. We have a "K" fetish in our family.

alspyce wrote:

Schlussdibusti wrote:

AFronhei wrote:
my husband as the dominant and the only one "allowed" to pee on walls (don't worry he doesn't! lol).

So glad to hear your husband is housebroken!

Very much so! He even puts the seat down.

I am going to have to be the wet blanket here, but any kind of alpha rolling is not an effective training strategy. Putting him on a down, thru a verbal cue, is fine as a kind of time-out, but not forcing him over on to his back and making him submit.

I mentioned a drag line in another post, and I'm going to say it once again. This dog is way too new to you to have the freedom he seems to have in your house. Any kind of hyper activity on anyone's part is going to excite him; now you know that (totally normal for any young dog). So, be ready to manage it. If roughhousing is on the agenda, take him in another room or crate him away from the action.

Also, neutering him is not going to affect his behavior towards other dogs much. That is going to be a training and management issue. You are probably correct in assuming he wasn't well socialized with dogs (or children), so you'll have to work on counter-conditioning.

He seems like a great young dog with a lot of potential; he needs careful guidance to make sure he understands what the rules are and what is expected of him and what is allowed and what isn't. You can''t just assume he understands all these things, and you have to be mindful about managing him around everything until he becomes trustworthy. I think you guys should have realized that he would become overexcited by the play between your husband and the young boy, but maybe you have no prior dog experience? Expect him to get excited by wheels...skateboards, bikes, rollerbladers; runners; moving vehicles, and in general, any kind of high-energy activity.

leih merigian wrote: He seems like a great young dog with a lot of potential; he needs careful guidance to make sure he understands what the rules are and what is expected of him and what is allowed and what isn't. You can''t just assume he understands all these things, and you have to be mindful about managing him around everything until he becomes trustworthy. I think you guys should have realized that he would become overexcited by the play between your husband and the young boy, but maybe you have no prior dog experience? Expect him to get excited by wheels...skateboards, bikes, rollerbladers; runners; moving vehicles, and in general, any kind of high-energy activity.

I actually have a lot of prior dog experience. I've owned Malinois and GSD my entire life. I also worked in law enforcement in the military and was exposed to working dogs there. Before this happened we had done our best to attempt to "overexcite" him with my husband and I roughhousing with him and with each other. I did not expose him to a child in an environment like that without previously testing his bounds as much as possible. He doesn't get excited by wheels or runners or even children playing soccer on a field while he sits on the side lines. I've exposed him to all kinds of stress and group situations. I did keep him close at hand until he earned our trust in various situations. After the exposure that I had made certain to subject him to there was no way I could have known how he would have reacted. It was completely out of the blue. He had shown no interest in screaming children, moving objects, or otherwise while on lead.

I am going to have to be the wet blanket here, but any kind of alpha rolling is not an effective training strategy. Putting him on a down, thru a verbal cue, is fine as a kind of time-out, but not forcing him over on to his back and making him submit.

I think when over-used in the wrong (or every) situation it can be ineffective. I have found it very effective. I rarely use it and since that day I have had no issues with him. We've even recreated a similar situation with him on-lead to see his reaction. He now realizes that his response was uncalled for the first time around. I only utilize a roll in necessary situations. I was mauled by a Malinois when I was 5 yrs old. By our own dog, in fact. Why? Because no one had ever made him realize that I "outranked" him. I took something from him and he tried to rip my throat out. Maybe that makes me a little more "heavy-handed" than most but I would rather be dead-sure that he knows his place than to put my own child in that situation. As far as "forcing" him onto his back, that makes it sound much more violent than it is, I do not do it with malice or anger. I don't talk harshly to him while he is on his back. I don't even force him to roll. I ask him to do it then I simply sit there with him with my hand on his chest. I know people practice different techniques and not everyone agrees but I've found it to work effectively. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I do, however, value your opinion on the topic and am open to discussion about why it does/does not work.

The concept of pack dynamic is hotly debated right now. The gist is, what we base most of our dog training philosophies around are out dated studies of captive wolves who don't act the same in normal, wild situations.

This is a good article on it.
http://io9.com/why-everything-you-know- ... -502754629

That being said, whether it is about being "alpha" or rank, or just about handling behaviors from modification standpoint, the results are often the same. Rolling a dog is unpleasant for them, and therefore a correction. I, personally, don't think they internalize it on a "that person is dominant" level. But I do think they will make a correlation between behaviors and consequence and avoid those behaviors in the future - no different than using a correction collar.

One thing I do hate about alpha rolling is when it is used on insecure dogs (not saying that is the case here - but WAY too many people generalize the action all in the name of a fictitious social hierarchy). Putting an insecure animal in a more vulnerable situation will cause them to feel like they have to fight for their lives and create aggression where it would otherwise not have occurred. This is often seen on a very popular TV show

I can agree with that. I think its an acceptable form of correction when used in a correct manner. Havok is not an insecure dog and it doesn't hurt his feelings the way a stern "No" does so in some ways its a lighter form of punishment for him than even a harsh word. We're all pretty much grasping at straws with animal training because no one truly understands what works and why. I don't take it to the extremes others do, I've read the stories about dogs being slammed down onto the ground and that's just brutal and, IMO, animal abuse. It's just what works for us. I've read in to it and the misinterpretation of an alpha roll vs an omega roll and there is merit there. I make sure to also put myself on his level at times as well.

I don't believe the "alpha" position goes as far as to eliminate rivalry in a pack of dogs (as TV would have us believe). All of my dogs have a pecking order and I've seen them give up their place and move down the chain from time to time and, to be honest, it varies by activity. My blind female GSD defers to the others in everything with the exception of food. They allow her to eat "first". All of my dogs (with the exception of Havok because we're trying to bring him up to weight) eat together but she gets to start first and then our Border Collie starts eating after she is halfway done. Both females defer to Havok whether because he's a male or because of personality I couldn't say. At the end of the day though they know that I am the only one that can't be displaced. They also recognize my husband and daughters place as being above the chain.

In the last month I've seen great things from Havok. He came from an abusive environment and I'm fairly certain (judging from his reaction) that every time he was told "NO" he was hit. He genuinely loves us as only a rescued dog can. He's extremely protective of our daughter. He even corrects our other dogs when they get too rough with her. If I thought it was hurting him (psychologically or otherwise) in anyway to roll him I would not do it. That's largely in part of the manner in which I do it though. As I've said I don't "force" him into it. I believe most (well-balanced) dogs have a genetic predisposition to accept humans as the leader and also as someone to protect as well as to be protected by. The dynamic is amazing. Havok is thankfully still a very well-balanced dog despite his life before us.

I think the article makes very valid points about dominance in dogs as well. I don't have to constantly struggle to stay in control and I roll on the floor with my dogs. I don't eat before them and sometimes they win at tug-of-war. We try to keep Havok from winning too much because then he gets a big head but that's only his personality. lol.

AFronhei wrote:We're all pretty much grasping at straws with animal training because no one truly understands what works and why.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Learning theory is learning theory; behavior that is reinforced will be repeated. Works with people, works with dogs, works with non-domestic animals.

I do believe there are a lot of folks who still think compulsion is the way to go, and this camp argues with the mostly or all-positive camps. But to say that no one really understands what works and why is just not true, IMO.

Of course, we can agree to disagree here as well .

I can agree with that.
I was going more along the lines that while different training techniques may "work" they will, ultimately, be debunked or altered later down the road as we develop a better understanding of animal behavior. The same is true in human psychology. (And let's be honest, raising our children to have good manners and a raising a dog to do the same is much the same concept). I think a healthy mix of positive reinforcement and consequence is the way to go. It's the same method I use with my daughter. I praise her and make sure she knows I am proud of her but when she makes a mistake there are varying degrees of consequences. Its my healthy medium between the "spank your child for every offense" camp and the "time outs work best always, never let them know you are disappointed in them" camp.

about alpha rolling,have done it couple times. Then I noticed that dont work. She wouldnt be even wondered,juust continued the thing he did what where the rolling came.

Only working consequence with her is that I wont notice at all.She knows when she does something forbitten, in the house when doing something, biting sock, etc,she goes to the bathroom after.

Outside shes humble after the thing she did, (barking other dog,etc).

Still, ears came to head when I started to act more like alfa. Simple thing, she get no attension from me for free.Before I gave it too much, after I saw its bulletproof resurs for her, She now work for it.

There are different dogs,yes, but still thinking those all spoiled little barkbags what I see everyday is a thing what come to getting them as a cute child.

Theres little difference when working with child,and dog- with child u can explain Why something is forbitten, with dog u cant.