Dutch Shepherd Forum

Is anyone concerned that the DS is accidentally being portrayed unfairly? I'm constantly running into videos of a DS doing bite work with heavy metal blaring in the background. Photos of bite work. Photos of snarling. Photos of "rough play".

I know that the DS is a working dog, but should people tone it down a bit? I read about groups pushing to have the AKC recognize the DS and groups fighting against it. (I'm against it.) The very fact that this is being considered tells me that, while still rare, the DS is gaining ground in the USA. This coupled with the tough dog persona being portrayed is going to turn the DS into a "pit bull" faster than you can scream a Hollywood style "Nooooooo". I spent the last 8 years working low income neighborhoods and street gangs, and let me tell you what... they will be the first to jump on this image. Already when I take my DS out for exercise I'm noticing that the ones who seem the most intrigued by her are the ones that make my hairs stand on end. I would hate to see a day when a DS is chained in the yard or protecting a drug den.

Again, I know the DS is a working dog and that some of the work involves biting. I just want to know if anyone has the same concern about the DS image. The CDC has a Top 10 Dangerous Dogs list that is just ridiculous, but it effects renters and home owners. It also has bearing in court and in the public consciousness. I would hate for the DS to end up on it.

Thoughts anyone??? Am I just being crazy???

no, not crazy at all !!!! for many years when strangers ask what my DS is, I just respond ''mix'' or ''shepherd mix''. you are absolutely right that the people you least want to own one are the people most interested. last year I wrote to Trudy at NADSR to point out this image problem. for me, the image problem involves giving ideas to the wrong crowd. the NADSR calendar is mostly filled with just the sort of image you are talking about and that very much attracts the attention of the worst possible owners. why do that if you are an organization that purports to protect the breed? it should be the opposite - more like our ''may flowers'' and other recreational beautiful photos. we all know what these dogs can do, but a couple aspects should not be publicized to people who do not know the breed. [ the first dog I fostered was chained in a back yard for 7 years with his brother until his brother died and he went to pieces.] let these people get pit bulls, which is plenty bad already, but not dogs who are smarter than they are! that would be plain torture for these dogs and it will happen fast and in a big way as you say if care is not taken.

I guess I'm a little split on this...

John, I was curious as to what photos in particular in the NADSR calendar looked bad. I had to go look up this past year's winners and only saw 1 doing bite work and 1 in a police car with a happy expression. The rest seem to be do every day dog things, showing the versatile side to the dog. Since DS are a working breed, I thought the spread of photos looked rather spot on as for what this dog is like.

I think it's important to show this particularly "tough" side to the dogs to help warn off every day pet owners that aren't ready for the exercise, training, and stimulation commitment that comes with having one of these super dogs. I see more dogs dumped by owners not ready for the commitment rather than being confiscated from fighting rings. Also, videos and pics of protection sports show people aggression and that's not what's want you want for a dog fighting dog. It's the opposite.

Odin comes to work with me, so we see a whole other side to the people asking about him. Yes, walking on the streets I get questionable people asking if I was going to breed "dat Tiger Shepherd," heck, I used to live on the South side of Chicago, but I also get a lot of grooming clients that want a protective looking family dog that they don't really intend on training. I think showing the athletic side helps them see they're no where near the average family dog. My former boss told me while she loves Odin, she wouldn't never get a DS because the idea of bitework doesn't sound fun to her and she has kids and cats at home and doesn't think she could provide a good enough outlet otherwise. To me that's a successful image of my dog. I want people to think he's a maniac in the wrong hands because he is. ABMCR was collecting destructive photos of what mals can do when they're bored. I think that's a great direction to go. A couple thousand dollars worth of exploratory surgery should be a good start to warn off people wanting to leave the dog tied up all day.

When we went to rent our last house, our landlord researched the DS and wasn't sure about Odin and then I presented a resume and training information and half a dozen references and we got the apartment. I think that's perfectly reasonable to expect for someone with a breed that needs above average handling. I would hate to be the neighbor to someone with an out of control DS. Those lists with the most dangerous dogs are based on statistics and I don't argue with those. I think a CGC or other training should be required for any breed that shows high levels of bite records. DS can have a tendency to bite people if not trained and managed and I don't think we should cover that up.

Having said that, they're always going to attract the tough guys because of their looks alone. Brindle is a pit type dog color. When you're walking on the streets, do those people see your dog growling, attacking a bite suit, etc? I know for me, they see a well trained dog by my side in a heel, yet people are still attracked to him. Odin seems like a nice dog , they ask about the breed and I educate them as much as I can and then they go home and research and those crazy videos come up and they think twice about owning this dog. Imagine if they went home and only saw DS with flowers and riding in little red wagons. Meeting a nice one in person and seeing good positive image is a big check plus for first time dog owners.

I personally think AKC recognition is going to bring the breed closer to the changes the GSD underwent, and not the pitbulls. Remember, pitbulls are not an AKC registerable breed. UKC has the American Pitbull Terrier, but the closest thing AKC has is the Am Staff and they are very small compared to the everyday pit bull. Tough guys don't care about registration.

American bred GSDs, due to selection from conformation only breeders, do less work and are better family dogs. If you'd like to see the DS go away from the tough guy image, placing them in the breed ring might just be the best thing. That's not what I desire, but how many tough guys have a standard poodle tied up out back? That breed is so far removed from it's original purpose of hunting that it's only really desired by conformation folks. I personally don't see too many GSDs on the breed ban lists or being owned by tough people anymore. They've turned into a regular family and farm dog. Along with that, health has decreased. You have to choose your battles.

The majority of good working breeders are doing great things for the DS because a dog that isn't healthy can't work, so they're not bred. Ultimately, the image has little to do with what's on the internet, but rather who has these dogs. If breeders and rescue remain united and screen homes well and help educate, with lawyer written contracts, the dogs can't get in the wrong hands to start with. I don't think it's fair to pick a working breed and then rally for them to be portrayed in a non-bitesport light. Go get a poodle if you want something that's intelligent and won't attract tough guys. They do come in brindle now.

LyonsFamily wrote: I don't think it's fair to pick a working breed and then rally for them to be portrayed in a non-bitesport light. Go get a poodle if you want something that's intelligent and won't attract tough guys. They do come in brindle now.

Right on!
There are enough ruined , walking carpets out there already.
You can't "love" the breed and dislike the thing that created it.

dan

I have a DS now but was involved with "bulldogs" for many years and I still participate on a "pitbull" forum. We had a similar debate going on over there, if anyone is interested.
http://www.ultimatepitbullforum.com/vie ... ?f=8&t=119
dan

funkyhunky wrote:

LyonsFamily wrote: I don't think it's fair to pick a working breed and then rally for them to be portrayed in a non-bitesport light. Go get a poodle if you want something that's intelligent and won't attract tough guys. They do come in brindle now.

Right on!
There are enough ruined , walking carpets out there already.
You can't "love" the breed and dislike the thing that created it.

dan

I couldnt agree more !!! They are working dogs, portray them as such. They bite and work, that is what they do, I dont want people thinking they are foo foo dogs good for every family. When people stop me and aske what they are, I tell them the truth, they are Dutch Shepherds and they are police and protection dogs and not your ordinary family pet. I really dont want the average Joe knowing how loving and fun they are. There is much more to them that take a certain kind of dog owner to deal with.

can't disagree with any of this. but it is a battle no matter what direction.
in the city with TD [ who was pretty intimidating to certain people because of his off-the-charts confidence ], besides the normal inquiries, there was the frequent inquiry from people who seemed they would actively like to intimidate others and/or tie the dog in the yard or lock in one room. people who do that don't really deal with the dog like we do. no real interaction necessary.
about breeders, the ones we know and mention are great and there are others that are well-intentioned, but there are increasing numbers of anonymous breeders that could care less about the protocols you describe. my own Sakima [ and his brother ] were dumped in a kill shelter in TN by his own ''breeder.'' Xander, close cousin to Sadie and Odin, was sold to his first owner to be trained by her as her own seeing-eye dog; bad idea for bad person.
I love the way things are now, despite these issues at the margin, but it will deteriorate and it would kill me to see these smart and sensitive creatures become the prisoners of tough-guy sorts.
glad to hear that this year's calendar is toned down with a distinct lack of snarling; I had not looked.
when decent people inquire and take the time for a real response [ most people stop their cars or hardly stop their walk, etc ], I sometimes do the whole bit about DS in the off chance the perfect future DS owner might be standing before me [ while warning off those that like the end-product but would never get there ], but those are few among the dozens of inquiries every day. too risky to respond truthfully to people that do not have the time for the background or to people for whom the story might appear to be an intimidating bonus.

I cannot disagree with anything you said; it is just that things are unfortunately more complicated than either of us might write. sorry to have caused you to write such a thorough and well-thought piece on what is by its very nature an un-rewarding topic.

I agree with portraying the DS honestly and I would not want an average family with kids picking a DS as their first dog. However, a responsible (& ethical) breeder would not sell a DS to such a client. The last breeder I dealt with in Jan'12 puts people through what constitutes a background check of info into their lives/lifestyles. My point with the image thing just relates to the people I dealt with in my career. They DON'T care about intelligence as a selling point, they care about ferocity and image. A dog that is protective and won't back down... cool color... muscular build... and a look and attitude of complete confidence gets them salivating. A lot of the people (I use that term loosely) that I dealt with that had dogs not only had pits, but cain corsos, GSD, Rott and one (stupidly) had a Ovcharka. Because of this I am guarded with the information I give to people about my dogs. Unfortunately, the people my DS would have no problem with tend to stay away because of her size and confident posture. The ones that I don't like are attracted to her like flies on ****. "What kind of dog is that? He looks bad-ass. Where could I get one?" To these people I lie through my teeth and tell them any crap that comes to mind. (Maybe I just live in a crappy area...)

I don't want to see the DS falsely advertised in red wagons with flowers strewn about. I just feel that some of the portrayals are oozing with BS machismo. Maybe less bite work videos without the heavy metal music in the background would help. I'm proud of the NADSR for the way they portray the DS, especially in their adoption announcements. They never lie or hide the hard truth and they show pictures of the DS without any garnish.

On the AKC point... The AKC along with show dog organizations are directly responsible for the genetic destruction of many dog breeds. For instance, the GSD's sloping back or low profile on their back legs is actually a genetic defect that is being passed along because it is what the "breed standard" demands. Ever seen pictures/drawings of what a basset hound looked like in the early part of the 20th century? Quite a different looking dog from the one we see today.

There is a great documentary on what breed standards do to dogs called Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Here is a the address for it on YouTube if you're interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jROjFPAis

I'm not looking for right and wrong in this. The future of the DS will play out on it's own. I just wanted to hear some opinions and start the conversation. The DS is the first dog I have owned that has come with such a complicated mystique.

well said, Nick.

Thanks John.

I wish I had read this before posting mine. This is my second bread that people think are dangerous. I had a dalmatian ( which I loved dearly) I always got stopped and asked if I had a problem with him after some silly report on 20/20. People started dumping them on the SPCA door step cause they were afraid of them or the breeder couldn't sell the litter.

People are always going to assume what they want. They don't consider it's just the owner not the breed.

Heather

Very true Heather. Breed discrimination is real and rampant in our society. In Denver the city council banned "pit bull type" dogs and proceeded to seize and murder close to 4,000 dogs since the ban was enacted. In many, many instances these dogs were perfectly well behaved family dogs with absolutely no history of issues. They were even going to begin seizing therapy dogs, but the courts stepped in and they are now debating this issue.

I've known 2 pit bulls in my life and I was shocked when I found out that they were pit bulls because they were such goofy fun loving dogs. Not one ounce of what is portrayed by the media.

This is why I posted this thread about the DS image. Pit bulls became the dog of choice for scummy criminal idiots and those wanting to look like one because of the public image of the dog. This same thing happened when Paris Hilton showed up on TV with her chihuahua. Every girl who was any girl had to have the chihuahua accessory. Now look at shelters and how many chihuahuas are in there.

We need to keep the DS image quiet and low key so the masses don't get interested.

DSELLEGIRL wrote:We need to keep the DS image quiet and low key so the masses don't get interested.