Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

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Anubis
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Tell us about yourself: I currently have 3 dogs - Akita, Dand and Doberman, all rescues. I am considering to get a 4th WORKING LINE dog earliest next year and are considering the following breed: Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Articles would only give a general view, but none of the day to day life with a DS. I am joining this forum to have a good understanding of the breed.

Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Anubis »

Hi All,
I'm new to Protection Sports (been doing it only a year with a pet quality Doberman with average drive) and I am very interested in getting a DS as my first working line dog.
However, everybody in the club is discouraging me from getting a DS and convincing me to get a GSD because it is a more STABLE and FRIENDLY dog.
I know this is a DS forum but hoping there are members out there who have had handled both GSD and DS or have had DS forever and would be able to give me an insight on how they differ as far as drive, agression (in sports), temperament, stability, biddability are concern - both in obedience and in protection training.
Any input also on DS being NERVY, therefore, inappropriate/crazy biters??? (which means huge liability for all).
Being new to the sports, I'm thinking a dog with a drive somewhere between average to above average would be good for me. Aside from Protection, I am also into agility to spend some of the dogs' energy, and have a more well rounded exposure for the dog.
Thanks much,
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

I never did any sport with my GSD but as far as crazy/ stable?? DS are (IMO) much more stable. I dont know where this crazy biting came from, no offence to you Anubis, but a few posts have mentioned this. DS are not crazy biters, nor is any dog. Since they cannot speak our language, we must learn theirs, and biting, always means something, even if we dont know, we just need to look and listen harder.

I would take a DS over a GSD any day, even Sadie, kidding. :pint:

For me is size, my GS was 125 and Im only 115. The DS have a fabulous off switch. I could never find the switch on the GSD. And the HAIR !!! AAHHH, I had a carpet in my kitchen every morning.

I did ring for years and all of the DS I worked with were super stable and way cool.

I was attacked over the weekend by a ...................ok..............sitting down?.......................a chiwawa!!, yes, they can fly. He bit me, not because he was a crazy dog, he was scared and was telling me something. Bites always mean something, well..........except for the time my friends Mal bit him instead of the decoy.

Ok, Im rambling, time for bed.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by LyonsFamily »

I think an American line GSD is likely to be more stable and friendly simple because they're washed down with conformation lines and pet breeders. I'd assume since you're interested in a protection sport dog and a higher drive one, you'd be looking at working line GSDs though, right?

I don't think the DS is an inappropriate biter. Every time I've encountered or heard about a DS bite, it's been plenty appropriate for the situation of handler error. It doesn't mean that it was proper for society, but we took wild animals in and domesticated them. Like Lisa said, we have to learn to speak their language too and we need to practice management. My dog doesn't bite because he's not given the opportunity to and is trained to not act like an idiot in public. I also don't let strangers pet him most of the time and I don't let him interact with dogs and people he hasn't been properly introduced to. He would bite in the wrong hands without the proper amount of training and exercise. Exercise probably being the key one.

I groom part time and see a lot of different dogs. In the grooming room, I probably get the closest to being bitten because there's so much to concentrate on among the tools and focus on the hair, body behaviors sometimes get hidden or unnoticed. The quickest dogs to try for a bite are Shih-Tzus, Lhasas, Australian Shepherds, Huskies and Pugs (pugs only during nail trims). I find malinois and DS easier to read than many dogs, especially the little ones. I have a lot of big baby GSDs that scream and kick, but I think that's a product of bad breeding and training, so my experience with those would probably be scewed. The only DS/mals coming in are in sport homes or work for law enforcement, so they have better foundations.

I'm just beginning training in protection sports with my DS, so I won't comment much more than to say what I've observed from being around other that compete and train. There are a lot of old school Schutzhund trainers and handlers that really like the GSD and want to preserve the breed and the history of the sport. Remember to take their bias into consideration when asking for advice. The DS is still relatively new in the US, but gaining in popularity and they're doing increasingly well competing over here. Just like with anything that undergoes change, there will be traditionalists that will cut down anything that may be perceived as better or newer, not for any valid reason other than they don't like change.

Now on to agility, I can give comparisons here. Growing up, I've had the opportunity to run a few GSDs and other breeds and now I have my Dutch. The DS runs agility totally different than any other breed I've ever worked. They pick up on miss cues so much quicker than another breed. The difference between which finger I use to direct can mean a missed obstacle.

In comparison to the GSDs I've worked, they're a lot faster, yet want to stay with the handler more which often possess a problem unless you're a cheetah. I've always been a runner in agility and follow the course myself while taking a slightly shorter path than the dog. My first dog way back when was a Beagle that needs serious motivation, so I became a creature of habit.

I know a lot of trainers that do mainly distance work and stand in the middle of the ring and send the dog out to each obstacle, only moving for certain turns in the course. With the DS, it's a ton of both. That means it's a lot more handling than you may be used to. There's a lot of finding the right time to move ahead and setting the dog up to come back into your path. It's been the same way with the malinois I've worked.

I think it's fun. It keeps me on my toes and makes me think a whole lot more out on the course and definitely tests my athletic abilities more. It has made the video camera my best friend and recording sessions really helps. It reminds me of my college volleyball days of watching film after a game or practice. It really depends on what kind of person/handler you are. If you're on the lazier side and want a dog that will do perfect runs while you jog alongside, a DS wouldn't be a good choice. I would recommend a beagle though. :g_wink: Old Lucy had so many perfect scores, but we often got DQ'd for going a few seconds over the time limit.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Id also like to chime in about the DS and agility. I did agility with Thalie, wow, it was very tricky! Some of the people were able to stand in the middle and direct, but no way could I, Thalie was just too fast. It was a ton of fun and they pick it up very quick but like Steph said, if you dont want to run with them through the course, then they are not what you want. I was the only one who, after each course felt like they ran a marathon. I also found that being a longer dog, the tighter turns were hard, when we practiced indoors in the winter, we couldnt make the turns, but that could have just been an experience issue. Thier stride is huge. And... thalie would learn to take the reward from my pocket after the last jump.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Sugars Mom »

I just wanted to comment here...as the topic of the DS being more prone to biting comes up every now and again, and in summary, the answers given seem to be no, they are not.....as long as they are handled properly. Well, doesn't that really mean yes?

I mean, in the right hands these are the greatest dogs in the world, but we all know that not everyone has the experience or puts the time in to "handle" their DS (or any dog for that matter) "properly". Just read through the posts on people who inquire if the DS is the right breed for them...and lots of people are discouraged as these dogs need alot of work and no, they are not for everyone.

And of course, besides the training, there is always the breeding part of it, and some dogs (no matter what breed) will always just be more stable (or unstable) then others.

I am no expert on this matter, so feel free to correct me if I'm way off base here.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Anubis »

Thank you so much for all the wonderful inputs! I am again, one step assured that my chosen breed as my next pup is NOT what they have been trying to convince me as such.
My TD is very afraid that I might wind up with another nervy dog and be frustrated instead of having fun with my next breed.
You see, my Doberman has been and is still a challenge. He is a bit dog reactive/agressive, nervy - afraid of anything and everything that moves, hides behind me, bounces off the wall, in short, unstable. But with my patience, persistence and perseverance, I have turned him into a very well behaved dog. Being a Doberman, he will still have the super wariness/suspicious instinct (defense drive is hard wired in Dobies), but I can take him to the mall, restaurants, have children give him treats, with coaxing would perform, and given the distance and properly introduced, he is ok with other dogs. He is still continually being worked...and I tell you, I can do the complete BH course at a busy intersection, at the mall, parks (with geese/ducks), streets.. How's that for a turnaround dog? SugarsMom, I did this 7 days a week, 2-endless times a day. In fact my hubby said all he hears from me is SIT, DOWN, STAY, LEAVE IT, COME, HERE, etc. :)
Dutchringgirl, LyonsFamily, thank you for sharing first hand experience of how to train DS on agility. Very few people IMO, would say generic sentences instead of actual/hands down experiences. I run with my Dobie the entire course, and I prefer it that way than just pointing out to the dog what to do. For me, it is what teamwork is. I seriously believe this would be fun. I wouldn't say I wouldn't pant (and complain) and catch my breath a ton of times, but it will definitely keep me fit and the dog fit and mentally sharp, which is my goal. To win the agility is secondary.
I have been eyeing on a breeder and I can see that his clients are satisfied. One of the members here is getting a pup from him, the one that just had 14 pups. :) She would be able to share lots with us and what she shares will be very valuable information to me.
Thanks so much all again.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Schlussdibusti »

Anubis wrote: I can do the complete BH course at a busy intersection, at the mall, parks (with geese/ducks), streets.. How's that for a turnaround dog?
:hail: :wtg:
Anubis wrote:However, everybody in the club is discouraging me from getting a DS and convincing me to get a GSD because it is a more STABLE and FRIENDLY dog.
I trained a GSD years ago in Schutzhund so I might be able to compare the two breeds. I got the same comments about a DS from a very successful and experienced K9 trainer (not the one I ended up training with), when I was considering adopting Marco. In my opinion folks you make these comments do the good 'ol yank and crank training method and a GSD is more forgiving to handler error. With a DS you have to use a bit more finesse and "Fingerspitzengefuehl".

P.S.: I define a good trainer as one who can turn around a "lemon" with patience and adjusting the training method to the dog's needs.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Schlussdibusti »

Regarding the Doberman..... Did you put a SCH I (IPO I) on him? I hope you don't let those club members discourage you since you mentioned "average drive". Even bite work is a lot of obedience and the dog does not need to "take the decoy down and destroy it", although this is the spectator's favorite and gets a lot of applause. You need 70 points to pass. Wouldn't that be a nice accomplishment? And if you look at some results of national events, a lot of the so called "high drive" dogs fail in the "C" section (bite work) because of "do not out" or "out of control".

Le Dobry Kennels, Jack Stienstra, used to breed Dobermans before breeding DS. http://english.ledobryhollanders.nl/who-we-are/ They might be a good source of info since they know both breeds so well.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by LyonsFamily »

Anubis wrote: For me, it is what teamwork is. I seriously believe this would be fun. I wouldn't say I wouldn't pant (and complain) and catch my breath a ton of times, but it will definitely keep me fit and the dog fit and mentally sharp, which is my goal. To win the agility is secondary.
That's a good attitude to have. This is usually how our practice sessions go...
I'm running around like a chicken with my head caught off trying to figure out which finger to point with and wondering why I didn't wear a training vest to hide his ball in a hidden pocket and read the cone numbers at the same time because I can't remember the walk through since I've spun in circles and am now dizzy trying to keep up with him. Then, if I wasn't already out of breath, I now can't breathe because I'm full of laughter because Odin is standing ON TOP OF the tunnel taking a breather waiting for me to catch up.

In relation to Lisa's comment about the longness of the DS being a problem, I cheated and picked a 1 year old that was already grown and I could tell he was more square. I always try to pick square dogs (height to length ratio of 10:10) for agility. That was the big reason for picking him over the mal I originally went to look at. You might want to take a look at the parents and previous litter results for a more square body if you're looking for a better agility dog. With the GSD, you're going to get an even longer dog than a DS, so that's another pro DS point for agility.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

LyonsFamily wrote:
Anubis wrote: For me, it is what teamwork is. I seriously believe this would be fun. I wouldn't say I wouldn't pant (and complain) and catch my breath a ton of times, but it will definitely keep me fit and the dog fit and mentally sharp, which is my goal. To win the agility is secondary.
That's a good attitude to have. This is usually how our practice sessions go...
I'm running around like a chicken with my head caught off trying to figure out which finger to point with and wondering why I didn't wear a training vest to hide his ball in a hidden pocket and read the cone numbers at the same time because I can't remember the walk through since I've spun in circles and am now dizzy trying to keep up with him. Then, if I wasn't already out of breath, I now can't breathe because I'm full of laughter because Odin is standing ON TOP OF the tunnel taking a breather waiting for me to catch up.
dutchringgirl wrote: whew, I thought that it was just me,everyone else in my agility class was always composed.
In relation to Lisa's comment about the longness of the DS being a problem, I cheated and picked a 1 year old that was already grown and I could tell he was more square. I always try to pick square dogs (height to length ratio of 10:10) for agility. That was the big reason for picking him over the mal I originally went to look at. You might want to take a look at the parents and previous litter results for a more square body if you're looking for a better agility dog. With the GSD, you're going to get an even longer dog than a DS, so that's another pro DS point for agility.
dutchringgirl wrote: :doh: I guess it was just me then :hic: Thalie is a pretty small square DS.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Kazdog »

I'm not sure what agility organization you participate under, but check the A-frame slat requirements. GSDs have one hell of a time getting up slatless A-frames. The long body, bent back, and extra long legs make it very difficult for some of these dogs to collect efficiently going up the A-frame or for consecutive jumps.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by ICE »

I have a 20 month old DS that I work in IPO and agility. THis is my first DS, as I have had GSD's my whole adult life. Don't get me wrong, I love my GSD's but my DS is amazing! He is very stable and does not bite inappropriately. He is super in protection. He is very stand-offish with people though. It takes some time for him to warm up to some people. I hear that is just part of being a DS. He will not attack or bite, he just chooses not to interact - that is fine with me. Also, this same dog is super sweet with my 2 year old granddaughter, except he can't stop licking her!! So, after working many GSD's and now having a DS, I will say that when I am ready for another pup - it will be a DS!!
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Anubis »

I love all your valuable inputs!
No, I am not planning to get a GSD. I had a not so nice experience with a GSD years ago (medical issue), husband doesn't want GSD, but my TD says DS too much dog for me, and GSD will be a better match/fit.
That I will wind up hurting and disappointed bec I got a DS (and not a GSD...) and don't say I wasn't warned!!! I wish no ill-will to solid GSD people, but I hope they will be willing to understand and work with other breeds as well..

I've been around dogs all my life (bred small/toy group before). I currently have Akita, Great Dane and my feisty Dobe. :) I am planning to put an FO on my Dobie this November, and will start agility next week. I am very excited.

Dutchringgirl, do I need to get a high drive dog for better agility performance? or probably consider a above average drive since this would be my first DS? ok...how different is it to handle/control a high drive DS? And...you will certainly hear from me (and all of you) when time comes my tongue is as long as the Nile River and my DS is scratching his neck in boredom. :lol:

LyonsFamily, I will make sure I inform the breeder that I would want as square a pup as much as possible. Thanks for this tip.

Schlussdibusti, talk about forgiving...Dobies are NOT tractable dogs at all! You yank and crank them, you're done for days! So, I know what you mean. Thanks for the tip. I will remember to train and correct it like you would a Doberman. Sometimes, I get discouraged because theirs are working line GSD and mine is Pet quality. But, with the effort I put into it, my Dobie can do the pattern in less than a year where it took them minimum 2 years to do it at the same level. Not comparing which breed is better here, just making a point that a pet quality working dog group can do obedience as well as a working line, with a patient and persistent handler too (AHEM...that's me. :lol: ) Yes, I follow Jack Stienstra, and I have read his article.

Hey Ice! I think I'm ok too with social and not outgoing DS. Dobies are notorious for being standoffish...they are social, but not very outgoing, and suspicion level (defense drive) is hardwired in them...I take my Dobie (he is also a service dog) to malls, boutiques, supermarket, restaurants, etc. and he will just walk pass the people. Did your DS have fear imprint period from 16 months onward? My dobe became dog fear reactive when he hit 18 months.

Thanks much! Nice discussion, nice input. I am falling in love with a Dutch more and more each day.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Kazdog »

What drive level you want for agility may depend on what clubs are in your area. If you have mostly AKC events, an extremely high drive dog that runs really fast at a distance from you might not be a great match. But if you have mostly NADAC trials, that kind of dog would be an asset. If you have a lot of UKC trails, a slower, more thoughtful dog would do better.

Stay FAR FAR away from anything with dog-dog re-activity for agility.

Dogs from lines that spin or pattern-train permanently after three repetitions are not helpful either.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by LyonsFamily »

Kazdog wrote:
Stay FAR FAR away from anything with dog-dog re-activity for agility.
You'd be surprised the number of dog reactive dogs that compete in agility and excel. Anubis already mentioned turning a reactive/fearful Dobe into an agility dog. I encourage reactive dogs to try out my classes as it's a great outlet and stimulation to help calm those dog. If you want to compete, it's all about picking the right trial locations that have properly fenced areas and just being smart about where you crate, where you walk the dog, and building that focus and drive in the ring. Reactivity is an umbrella term that covers so many different things including even over friendliness of a dog and high prey drive. Perhaps a truly dog aggressive dog would be a bad in agility until the problems are managed, but actual dog aggression is very rare, most of it is fear based.

An experienced trainer that is competing in your area can help you pick the right trials to attend because they'll know all of the show sites. My old 4-H leader growing up still competes in and since I just moved back, I can now run all entries past her first to make sure it's a good site with fencing, crating away from the ring, and space to enter/exit without other dogs lying around. Thinking back, I should've ran that Rally trial past her earlier this year and I would've known not to sign up for the lunch time class when there's an indoor hotdog stand.

Odin's dog reactive and although he's gotten tremendously better in the last year, he still has his days, especially with how much down time there is at a trial. A lot of reactivity presents itself while the dog is on leash, leash frustration. Running free in the ring and focusing on the obstacles seems to get his mind off of other dogs. In fact, we take a few private lessons a month to work on leadership and reactivity and the agility course is a big part of his lessons.

I wouldn't necessarily look for an extremely high drive dog for just agility, but if you want to do protection sports and get a working dog that happens to be high drive, he/she should still fair well after the proper amount of training. It also really depends on what you consider high drive. There are lines that will come up the leash at the handler and then there are lines that just take work very intensely and seriously. I would consider both of those high drive, but the second one would be the better option as agility is more about handler/dog relationships and taking directions compared to the more individualized judging that requires some on the spot thinking and independence with the responsive decoy work of bite sports.

I would talk to any breeder about your course running style and exactly what level of agility training you plan to do, and they should be able to help you out. Even if the breeder doesn't do any official agility stuff, they should know their lines and how they function in everyday agility tests whether it's working around the kennel or on the bite work field. With any training, you'll have to tweak your training style to match the dog as it matures, but you can try to aim to at least the same general level by looking at the parents'/grandparents' performance. Some breeders might flat out tell you that their dogs wouldn't work well in agility, and that's a good thing to know as well.

I compete in UKC and I have to say with more of the working breeds there and working lines, I see a lot more high drive dogs in other breeds, especially hunting breeds, but not with the DS. It might be because AKC hasn't fully accepted the DS, so all of the conformation dogs are already doing UKC and are more likely to sign up for agility events within the same organization. For malinois, for example, UKC conformation is so complicated with their special requirements, most do AKC for conformation and therefore will do AKC agility, so the ones doing UKC agility are less of the show lines.

Also, most of our local DS are from Cher Car Kennels, since I'm in Michigan and so are they. They aren't breeding those super over the top dogs. They breed for a nice balance of stable family temperaments, conformation, and working ability and seem to do very well in agility as well as bitesports.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Kazdog »

I do know many reactive dogs that compete in agility. But, as you said, you have to be very careful of your surroundings. This really limits what you can do and where you can go and, as a consequence, how much your dog can succeed. If there are only a few trials in your area a year that are suitable, you just don't get to compete much.

If someone is attempting to improve a dog they already have, this doesn't really matter. But, if someone is getting a dog specifically for competition, it's best to stay away from this type of dog because competition becomes secondary to management.
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Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Christie M »

I did want to chime in on this briefly.

Dutch Shepherds are like any other breed. There are some shitty breeders out there and some very nervy dogs produced. There are also a few lines of Dutch that are very sharp and quick to come up the leash. So researching your breeder is probably the most important part. What are their overall goals? Do they want to create hard core working dogs that are suitable for all aspects of LE and military? Or do they also emphasise handlability and a stable social temperament. Often support dogs are more biddable, while Personal protection dogs are sharper. Of course you can find the "total package" but it takes research.

So although I would say that most puppies will be fine if raised well, there are some exceptions to that and they aren't that uncommon.
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Tell us about yourself: I currently have 3 dogs - Akita, Dand and Doberman, all rescues. I am considering to get a 4th WORKING LINE dog earliest next year and are considering the following breed: Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Articles would only give a general view, but none of the day to day life with a DS. I am joining this forum to have a good understanding of the breed.

Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Anubis »

Hi Christie,

Thank you for lifitng the cloud on a DS being a DIFFERENT dog that a first time wanna be owner should be scared of. :)
I have been looking into a breeder quite closely recently. Some of the buyers bought the dogs as pet, was lucky to email them and they were quite happy with their pups..only comment was that they were fast and really like to bite, even at age one. Which brings me to another question..is biting typical of a DS? or can you curb biting humans but not squelch biting so it still bites toy/tug/sleeves? I only met 2 DS - one colored fawn so will be called a Mal (i've learned from this forum) and the other was the sweetest neutral female DS, working line, but won't even tug, very distracted with the environment, and no eye contact. This I would attritube to the owner/handler shortcoming.
I read a comment/thread here posted in 2010 on Aachen kennel being legit or not...and like anybody getting their first DS, I get confused and head swells with all that's written on their sites. I learned a lot from that thread, but still at a loss as to how to determine if the claims are founded or not.
In advising a first time or wanna be DS owner...when one say research on the breeder...how would this be done? talk to the breeder? ask for referrals? is it ok to talk to several breeders and go with the one you are most comfortable with and you feel will meet your needs? Are there any other research steps to be done? Thanks much for inputs here.

Anubis
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Christie M
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Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Christie M »

Hey again,

Picking a breeder is really had sometimes. For me, I would rather spend the extra money and travel to get a quality dog than worry about finding a breeder who is close to me.

I think it is absolutely fine to speak to as many as possible. Hopefully you will be a good judge of character and know when people are speaking to you genuinely, and when they are trying to schmooze. Some things I would want to know are:

Does the breeder have a goal or intention while they are breeding? Are they just trying to populate the world with Dutch Shepherds because they themselves like them, or do they have a vision for their program and where there puppies should go. Why did they choose the particular dam and sire that they did? What health clearances have been performed on the parents (hip certification is the absolute minimum - and I mean CERTIFICATION. Not "Oh, my vet looked at them and said they were good"). Will they put you in touch with previous people who got a puppy from them? Have the parents been worked/shown/performed/certified in anything? Most dogs can look stellar on their own property - but how do their nerves stand up when off? Do the parents live in an environment that is similar to how you want to have your dog? Many people have "brood bitches" that live in kennel runs. How are the puppies raised. At what age do they receive vaccines? Deworming? How are they socialized? Do they require a puppy contract? A good contract protects the puppy first, makes guarantees to protect the buyer second, and protects the seller by outlining return policies...etc.

All of this being said - I can be extremely lazy when it comes returning people's emails and phone calls. So I just set up a Facebook page for myself as a breeder. This way, people can come and ask questions directly. They can ask me, or they can ask most of my puppy owners. LOL. It has helped a ton! It can be viewed at https://www.facebook.com/groups/NWK9.THK9/.

Good luck in your search!!
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
Anubis
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Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm
Tell us about yourself: I currently have 3 dogs - Akita, Dand and Doberman, all rescues. I am considering to get a 4th WORKING LINE dog earliest next year and are considering the following breed: Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Articles would only give a general view, but none of the day to day life with a DS. I am joining this forum to have a good understanding of the breed.

Re: Are DS more difficult to handle than GSD?

Post by Anubis »

Hi Christie,
This reply is so super late, I MUST be BLIND for not seeing your last comment. ..but thank you very much for all the tips on what to ask the breeder. I might have to print that as a check list. I am not wasting time...to your Facebook page!

Anubis.
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