Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hello. I am happy to be joining this forum. It looks like a great source for information sharing.

We adopted our Dutch Shepherd about 5 1/2 months ago from a local shelter. He is an amazing dog and was an incredible find! There are breeders in our area so I feel fairly confident that his is a Dutch Shepherd. (See his picture)

He came in as a stray, having been on the loose for about two weeks before they were able to catch him and get him to the shelter. The volunteers felt he had most likely been dumped, as they are located near the interstate highway. He was already neutered, housetrained, and about a year old from what we can tell.

I will try not to ramble too much about his background... ...but at the shelter he was submissive to other dogs. When other dogs near him got into a squabble, he would get away and tremble. He came out of his shell and when we met him he was very friendly toward us and was spending his time loose in the front office with a smaller dog and doing fine--even alone at night. He loved our kids from the beginning and showed absolutely no aggression even when one of my children snuck back in to pet him (on the face) as he was just starting to eat his dinner before we left. Yikes!

He has come a long way in the 5 months since we've had him...he was once terrified to ride in the car but now loves it. At first he had a lot of separation anxiety and would destroy his crate or the house, but now he is generally well behaved when left alone in the house. He has been through obedience classes, and has been doing agility for the last couple months. We keep him exercised and try to keep his mind busy as well. He was terrified of the crate (has divots in his lower teeth from chewing on something like a fence or crate) but now he eats in the crate and tolerates being in there for short periods when we are home.

There are a couple issues that have come up though recently... he doesn't seem to understand when people (especially the kids) run and play and rough house with each other. The other day two of the kids were playing around outside--one of them restraining the arms of the other and the younger one was wiggling and squealing and trying to get away. Before they knew what was happening, Simba jumped up and bit the youngest daughter in the buttocks. It was enough to break skin in one area and leave bruises. He has done some nipping in situations like this before but has never acted so aggressively toward the kids. In normal calm situations he is completely trustworthy but he doesn't like any kind of physical contact between people that isn't slow and gentle. He is generally kind of "mouthy" when excited and chomps his jaws at the air when excited to get outside, etc.

The other issue is that what used to be fear and avoidance of other dogs has turned to more aggression. He will avoid dogs if possible and doesn't go looking for a fight, but if another dog gets into his space he snaps and lunges (This is on a leash). Our smaller female dog, however, is his alpha and can keep him off the bed or out of a room with just a certain stare. He does not challenge her.

We are happy with the progress he has made but are concerned about these behaviors. Thanks for your input.

Welcome to the forum! Simba definitely looks and sounds like a DS and is a gorgeous one at that. I just love the way that blue collar looks on him. Odin has one the same color.

For the kids issue, he's a herding dog, and a protective breed. These dogs don't like the mass chaos of children running around, especially when it looks like one is getting injured or restrained by the other. This is a big reason why so many breeders and rescues emphasis no young children for many of the dogs, unless it's an experienced household. For that situation, you either need to put him away when they're running around, or give him something else to do. I would opt for strengthening his obedience. Working on things such as a place command, recalls, drop on recalls, etc, will help him focus on you while the children are playing and give you a good option to call him off if they start getting rough without notice. If you can't always supervise or work him while they're out an about, then he needs to be put away for everyone's safety.

The dog issue could be a couple of things including leash frustration or resource guarding. It's hard to tell those things without seeing the dog and situation in person. Other than your small dog at home, who are the other dogs he is reacting too and where are you encountering them at? How close does a dog get before he's reacting? What are you considering his space? Does a dog on the other side of the street cause him to lunge, or a dog walking next you? Is a dog being allowed to approach him directly with the possibility of body contact?

Thanks for the advice. I think continuing to work on his obedience is a great idea. He needs to work on being more focused and disciplined I think.

As for the other dogs, he basically avoids them when possible. We have an invisible fence and share a boundary with three neighbor dogs and he just stays away from them. When we first got him, he would tremble and put his tail between his legs just when he heard a dog barking in the distance during a walk. Now we can pass another person walking a dog on the other side (about 15 feet away ) and he keeps walking trying to ignore them as much as he can. In obedience class he would be ok until another dog got within about 4 or 5 feet from him coming directly to investigate him. We could work with the group as long as the dog wasn't approaching him he was usually ok. At agility class he snarls when dogs get rowdy and run around within about 6 feet of him.

Before he started acting this way with other dogs we took him to the dog park a couple times. The first time he was scared and stayed close to us. The second time he went off a little on his own and sniffed nose to nose with some smaller dogs but avoided or snarled & snapped at the bigger dogs.

He plays with our other dog all the time. Although she is the boss, he wrestles with her and tackles her and they chase each other and he has fun. But he doesn't like the strange dogs.

Just to add to what Stephanie said -
I think both behavior problems that you are describing are fear based. Butt biting is a very typical behavior demonstrated by insecure dogs. They don't have the guts for an actual confrontation, so they wait to get their pop shot in. What started as extreme submission has turned into more forward behavior to prevent situations rather than diffuse them.

In both cases, I think that increasing obedience is key. He doesn't have the social skills or confidence to make appropriate decisions. Once he begins looking to you for how things should be handled, he may become more trustworthy. In the meantime, you have to ensure that you always are setting up the situation for his success. He can drag a leash in the house when people are over - it can even be attached to something to keep him in a "place" (think dog bed). He doesn't need to get mugged by other dogs and if he can tell them to back off without breaking skin, I would let that occur. Otherwise, just keep him out of those situations right now.

I believe that dog "sees" children playing around as dogs playing and he is playing with them as a dog would play with other dogs.

I hope in quieter times you have worked on some simple things to teach him to control himself. For example, I taught mine early on to "settle". Yes actually worked on this like a trick. I would do both catching her when she was settled and giving her treat saying "settle". I also modeled her, before bedtime is good, and helped her to know what was settled such as lying down, head relaxed and down, slower breathing; "yes, settle". Anyway, I can tell her settle when excited and she can do so. First objective in her learning to control herself.
And everyone needs to use same commands. Also remember dogs can't know subtle word differences like "look, see, watch". So you need to pick one word for one thing. (read books on "positive dog training" or clicker training (I use yes instead of clicker)

Another one to learn is "leave it". So when you say this the dog stops doing, looking, whatever it is doing. Good for shepherds who can get stuck on something. I would say roudy children require advanced understanding of leave it; but eventually; of children are not giving conflicting instructions or movements (encouraging dog to join in?) you could say "leave it" and dog would stop. This is good for dog safety too. Say, electric cords. At first dog would go to them; I would say leave it. Eventually, she no longer even bothered. Or, if she is in yard at night barking at some critter, I can say "leave it" and she usually directs her attention briefly to me, long enough for "come" and go "inside". This has worked with such things as snakes. That is why I say it is good for safety.

Oh, I also taught her "freeze" and "stop" because if she gets loose, she tskes off fast for a game of keep away down the street. I did this when she was running in backyard. As soon as she stopped, I would say "freeze" (sometimes you have to pick a word that seems to interest them yet does not sound like another command). I would give her treat, then just attention once it seemed learned. So in this case one could call out "freeze" to stop playing.

I strongly suspect that kids are knowingly or unknowingly somehow by even body language the permission for dog to join in; he does; everyone is excited; and dog does what it does, it is a dog, it plays like a dog! including play biting on another dog's (your child's) butt! I do not know their ages, but it could esculate to being a real bite. So, until dog learns to control itself with some of these basic things, I would encourage children to not do that around the dog as they have more capacity to learn that faster than the dog. So, in my opinion, dog is seeing this as permission to act and play like a dog. It is natural response! Not really being bad, he just does not know better. This playing will attract dog to act like a dog. But you can have those words to help him learn he is not invited to that eventually.

Oh, yes, he should learn "no bite". Same thing, if you get dog playing (one person) and get him to where he starts getting excited with puppy bites or play bites, usually starts at the air; stop play, say no bite, dog stops and looks like why did you stop?; give treat and "yes, no bite". Then pracrice this a little over time. It won't stop play bite attempts entirely-it is a dog, it wants to play like a dog- but, again you have the word to say to stop things right at start. Usually then dog recalls for rest of play.

Also, part of this is watching and stopping excited behvior before it increases and is not controllable.

I think most believe if a dog is fearful; if it is pushed into the verge of fearfulness; it can lose it and it becomes an aggressive response. This is just too much to write out here. Until you can discuss your dog with someone who can help you understand; again; you as human needs to recognize body language that occurs BEFORE it morphs into aggressive. Some of above will help at that point. basically it is like the dog has a breaking point. If anything is aggrevated enough, it will respond with aggressiveness. This dog has lower limits. You somehow need to know those specifically and try to work through them all.

And, if dog is fearful of something obvious. You need to NOT buy into it with petting reassuredly and saying "poor thing", etc. That rewards the fearful behavior! You need to act yourself and everyone in family like it is no big deal. So what. Dog should be looking to you for how to act; and he will eventually see*n no big deal. Mine used to quietly move into my leg when walking and another person would pass. I would pat her like you would pat someone on their back ans SAY "no big deal!".For example.

So in this, you have a big ball of several issues all pf which can be taken care of. ALSO this is high energy dog, are you allocating some short time everyday (15 minutes is fine) and giving him individual attention just for him? Letting him run about as a dog. Play dog games or with his toys? Some of this pent up energy could also be contributing. Also, does your dog have lots of chew toys to entertain himself.

With very smart dogs, they sometimes need to be given a job too, even if it is made up. Like sometimes my dog "helps" me carry a towel or blanket. Not tugging, but helping me. "carry". My bet is that he has tons of pent up energy. This is part of time you invest. I talk to mine and point to objects and tell her a name. She knows small sentences now. Like "go to dish and eat". "go to my room" "time to come inside/go to bed". So by now we communicate back and forth well. These dogs are high energy and intelligent enough for a mind of their own. Mine even teases me. Most time I can see it coming
But I let her do it. I also encourage her to be able to play on her own!

You need to teach dog how to behave in various situations over time. Otherwise the dog devises his own way; and that is dog's way and it might not be what you want. This starts with dog learning self control words and eventually better communications.
Really, you need a dog trainer to talk to you about these and dog behavior in general. Basically the dog is finding his behavioral solutions from his dog mind with his dog behaviors. It is not matching yours. So he is not a bad dog, he just does not know what to do.

Mine is just past 2. I got her maybe at 7 months. Only very basic training. She is learning still mobility dog for me. And she has gone from a constant whirlwind to now when I say I need to rest, she either joins me or plays to herself.

Oh, yes, one last thing. Dog needs one spot in home that is his. A place to rest and if he wants to be by himself and undisturbed. Like a dog bed, or a corner with a blanket. Where he can chew a rawhide undisturbed and go and come pretty much as he wants. But he can also learn "go to spot". This should be positive restful place, not punishment spot. Usually good if it is where they can quietly watch other's in house. Dogs have moods just like any. And some times they want some alone time too. This helps dog develop sense of security.

And finally, if dog can have a set routine each day; it also helps with sense of security. And trust.

It takes longer than 5 months for a dog that has been shuttled about to learn you are its home and he can trust you. Even if you have a kennel of kids instead of a kennel of dogs.

No one is perfect but in time, you too will have wonderful dog.

Well those are my ideas,others may disagree. But the two dogs I have had in my adult life have both turned into wonderful helps. And friends.

Thanks for the advice. I agree that it is fear based. He was very timid and fearful of a lot of things when we got him. Its hard to tell if he is trying to join in on the play or protect someone. Or if he just gets so excited he chomps. I think his bite maybe is harder than he thinks it is!

We use a lot of the commands you discussed. Leave it. No bite. Settle. And we use wait instead of freeze like when he is getting out of the car etc. I will try to get everyone being more consistent with that. We dont usually catch him calm and reward the settle command so we will try that.

We try to give him a job with his agility classes. And he has done some tracking classes too. He has the job of driving the kids to school every day. ..well Ok I drive but he supervises. We have an acreage and he gets lots of exercise patrolling the place.

He has his own bed in our room that he likes and a crate in the family room where he eats but he still really dislikes the crate. Hopefully it will eventually become his special spot.

So I guess I'm still not sure about the issue with other dogs. Should I keep him from getting too close to other dogs? Meet other dogs off leash so he can get away? Or controlled environment like obedience class where all the dogs are on leashes? Obviously he will need to be around other dogs to be comfortable with other dogs. Are you saying just watch his triggers for now and keep him under the threshold where he reacts?

I know we haven't had him that long and it will take time but I want him to learn healthy acceptable waysof dealing with his anxiety. ...not biting.

I would say that controlled situation are best so that he learns that he won't get mugged and he can rely on you to keep him safe. Then, of course, you have to keep him as safe as you can.

I would do interactions in neutral areas with dogs of known temperament only. I have quite a few girls I would feel very comfortable putting him with - and a few younger dogs too. He needs to receive information and not over react (but honestly, I haven't seen his reactions and they may be quite reasonable. No blood - usually OK). It is only through some of those interactions where you can see improvement will you feel comfortable reading his body language.

Check out this blog: http://thedogsnobs.com/2013/07/30/your- ... o-are-you/. I am convinced that for the most part, our dogs who politely ask others dogs to remove themselves from personal space, and then demand it are not out of line. Imagine if people greeted the same rude way. Perhaps he is trying to express himself in a normal dog way and your presence is a deterrent? I would say set yourself up with people who have dogs of known temperament and see where things go if he is actually treated with respect.

Christie M wrote:Check out this blog: http://thedogsnobs.com

I LOVE this blog!!!

Yes!

Not so much with my current dog, but my last one; I had to be always vigilent. But it is good advice for all dogs, animals-and even excitable humans sometimes. It is always easier to control before it esculates or even might avoid behavior entirely. So yes; catch it before.

Oh, I am sure he does not think his bite is anything more than a play puppy bite. He does not know better. So best to not let him get excitable to biting point. He'll learn.

Yes, everyone has to be in on training. Use same words. If there is question for a good word; maybe even have family vote on good word! Makes kids aware of importance and gets them engaged.

Sometimes I use odd words cause for some reason those catch her ear best. Example, she has bad whining habit. I tried all common words. Then, one time my sister on phone said she sounds like she is squeaking, "oh, stop squeaking!" on speaker phone. She stopped! And now I say stop squeaking and it stops. Crazy. Works. She is also learning to control herself again. It all builds.

I use wait as word for "stop there in that spot" like going out doors. So I used freeze if she is running like a maniac and I want her to stop. I use stop for her to stop in her tracks like if she is walking ahead of me. Like I would use forward, left, right. More a directional term. You can use any words. But if you use stop as going through a door for running like a maniac; dog might not see that as same. One is stop from going through door and one is stop and no barrier/door? In middle of yard? My human is nuts? For me wait is like wait in bedroom while I go to kitchen. Not as strict as stay where shhe should hold same position and not shift about. But this is just me. And it works with her. And being service dog she needs subtle differences. You may not. But they are smart enough. Mine is only just 2 so "we" still are learning and just getting good attention span.

But get some reading on the "positive dog" training. A lot is catching them in a behavior. "They" say it sticks better and does not stress them. I don't know. It works. Sometimes they catch on right away, sometimes not-if so we have probably not been so clear in explaning to dog what we want. Look to ourselves first. Make sure no mixed messages. I am no expert; just learning through reading, hearing, seeing, trying.

If dog does command in one location or situation and not another, it means they have not really learned that. Maybe they learned cues from a location moreso. That is a dog learning curve and also making sure they are learning the behavior to the cue or word; not just the situation. OR it could be they are otherwise distracted.

I was told if you say it twice, and it is something you KNOW dog knows; probably dog is not paying attention to you for some reason. Mine sometimes is distracted. I tap her on her shoulder, she looks at me, and say it. Almost all the time she does it then. I also use "watch" or "listen with your listening ears" (just listen would work)

But yes; be vigilent and catch oops before it happens.

As far as other dogs, I am not best to ask as I only have one dog at a time. First dog (all mine as an adult, I grew up with dogs) was mostly good with dogs; once in a while; if I was not vigilent some dog would set him off barking for no reason I could tell. Why some dogs and not others? I never learned why. On this one, she is accepting of other dogs; if one barks at her she might get a little timid-i pat her, no big deal- and do not act like it is. And she is big girl, tall, so not many dogs taller in her experience. So if a great Dane appears, she is a little timid. I do same thing. But she is only 2. Basically I am trying to teach her that her world is not rocked by these dogs. She has gotten better. But I just do not have much experience with that. Most dogs or any animals she immediately wants to play. Why don't cats and oppossums play the right way? They act all funny and don't bow down! So this is just experience thing for her.

So, I think you do need to see a dog trainer about that. They are used to handling lots of dogs in dog groups. Maybe it is just getting around more dogs; maybe it requires more behavior modification. Also they need to really find the causes. Maybe it is being viligent? Is it protective? Or what? On mine, I cannot encourage any "aggressive" protective behavior. But she will position her lying down body between me and a stranger. With her size, no one is going to need more than that if they are up to no good. I know my dog came to a shelter, was kept in a kennel with some basic work in the "cage" with a very dominent male dog. If she gets near that dog, she gets timid. I think he puts all the dogs there in their place. I can tell it stresses her; so I just stopped going where that "bully" is. Something went on there. On other hand-flirts shamelessly with human men. And men love her. I have to watch this as she works. Be vigilent. It is harmless except that it distracts her attention from me. And that is not good if she is working. Anyway, I think you need someone who knows to watch her, or see videos, of him displaying these behaviors to make the assessment. My only comment is that maybe he does not know "you" and his new life and routines enough to "know" that he is safe and his needs are now taken care of. It might not be time yet to expect him to be "relaxed" yet. Maybe he is still holding a degree of stress? This sets it off? Just hard to say, you need person who knows to observe and comment. It is hard to say, is it a temperment thing? Can you tone it down? Is it a none of us are perfect and that is his and your cross to bear? Is he just getting over excited and does not know how to handle the situation? So he takes matters into his own paws?

All I can say, some things that I thought I would never improve in my other dog eventually did improve. It was more and constant work. Vigilence. So I guess nothing is impossible.

Sorry I have no ideas as far as other dogs. But I would have it evaluated before putting him or another dog in an undesirable siruation where somebody might get hurt. Learn what you and he need to do to respond correctly. It is probably more than just needing to get around other dogs. He HAS been around other dogs. So lack of exposure would not fit this so well.

I do continually take mine out and point out bew things. I have to. With this dog and previous, call me nuts; if there was some new to them object, like a pipe in ground, I would point and say, "pipe". Then that was it, they would move along. So let's say next is a big dirt ditch. I might say "ditch like a pipe". Silly as it sounds many many times, as soon as they heard me "name" it and act like no big a deal; it was not a big deal!

I think it sounds like you are doing right. maybe children need to be calmer in his presence. At least for now. And everyone same words of direction, everyone good boy and that is it when good is done. Maybe he needs more time to adjust. If he has a quiet spot he can go and he knows it thar is good. If he navigates in car that is good. Oh, and forgot as far as kids. Maybe being a shepherd he is seeing them as unruly sheep. You know, I have seen trained sheep dogs nip at a wayward sheep top get it to move along. So- this could be a factor too! You can decide that.

All I know, mine is VERY smart for better or worse. My other dog, a mix of other things, was smart; but this one is really smart. She shows initiative! And this is just the reason I have to show her and teach her how to behave in situations. I had to show her to settle and down in a doctor reception room and in the exam room. After learning it in mainly one office; I had to re-show her in a new doctor's office. On and on. After about 3 offices; and after I walk her around to see a new office (take in potted plants, doors, etc) she now settles right in. Then, as of recent; now knowing good behaviors; she can sometimes select right behavior on her own now! But it takes me seeing each situation as new to her; and teaching her how to do.

A story. An insurance woman stopped by house. She gave me a rolled up throw. Well dog saw it and was watching it whole visit. I could tell she wanted it a lot more than I did. So after woman left; I gave it to her. She helped untie the bow, helped unroll it, and then picked it up and placed it on the end of the bed next to her pillows! All on her own! (yeah, the only dog I have ever shared my bed with, and only because she stays in her place on top of another throw and I keep her very clean! She has her own very nice bed she uses also.) she loves that throw! She knew not to just take the throw. She knew if I gave it to her it was hers. And she thought and then figured out the proper place to put it. This comes partly as we have been slowly working on her bringing toys back inside after she takes them out and is ready to come in. So it all comes in time, and we more to learn I love learning more about her as she learns. And I love as time goes on we understand

Unruly sheep!! Ya, I like that. That's what they are sometimes!