Dutch Shepherd Forum

Does altering a male dog effect there workability? I have mixed feelings. I know that many think that the level of testosterone effects the level of aggression. But others disagree. The Clinical Behavior Colleges recommend neutering only to effects intra-dog aggression. Not human related aggression. And some (obviously a certain sect of K9 handlers) feel that their neutered males are more focused on work and less focused on external influences.

I have seen numerous working dogs that were neutered and they are awesome. Would they have better? Don't know. The only direct comparisons that I have seen are 2 dogs that were intact while worked, and then neutered at an adult age (one at 18 months, the other at 2). Both maintained the same level of aggression.

What does everyone think?

I don't have any first hand experience of being able to compare the same line of dog, intact, neutered young, and neutered at 2yr of age or at maturity. I think that would be the ultimate comparison.

All I have to go off would be the rumor that intact dogs, both male and female, have better working drives. I do believe it's best to let both male and female dogs reach sexual maturity, and finish growth before getting them fixed. Those hormones play a role in the growth plates closing, and mental maturity, I believe.

In some sense I have a VERY hard time with this. I've worked in rescue for years, and have seen the effects of overpopulation. Fact is many people with intact dogs are not responsible enough to keep them contained to prevent 'whoopsie' litter.

I do believe that neutering later in life for an aggressive dog will not have a strong effect. It may help dog-dog aggression, but overall I don't think it will have a large influence on the dogs behaviors.

To complicate matters- I think being intact may have more of a benefit for dogs that are working in PPD, not sport work. Those dogs have more of a need for a strong defensive drive, not just prey. Does that make any sense?

I'm rambling. I'll go have a cup of coffee re-read this.

turnnburn52984 wrote: All I have to go off would be the rumor that intact dogs, both male and female, have better working drives. I do believe it's best to let both male and female dogs reach sexual maturity, and finish growth before getting them fixed. Those hormones play a role in the growth plates closing, and mental maturity, I believe.

In some sense I have a VERY hard time with this. I've worked in rescue for years, and have seen the effects of overpopulation. Fact is many people with intact dogs are not responsible enough to keep them contained to prevent 'whoopsie' litter.

I do believe that neutering later in life for an aggressive dog will not have a strong effect. It may help dog-dog aggression, but overall I don't think it will have a large influence on the dogs behaviors.

I totally agree with everything you said! I use to work at a shelter, and I feel like Im a hypocrite because my female dutchie is not spayed... But then I know that I am a very responsible pet owner. I dont know if I ever plan to breed her, I might, but then I think of all the other dutch shepherd breeders out there... So I am undecided, plus I would just die if spaying her affected her working ability which I doubt it would.. but what if???? So I too fall victim to the rumor, but I have heard other people that also work dogs say it has no affect them.

kimkim wrote:

turnnburn52984 wrote: All I have to go off would be the rumor that intact dogs, both male and female, have better working drives. I do believe it's best to let both male and female dogs reach sexual maturity, and finish growth before getting them fixed. Those hormones play a role in the growth plates closing, and mental maturity, I believe.

In some sense I have a VERY hard time with this. I've worked in rescue for years, and have seen the effects of overpopulation. Fact is many people with intact dogs are not responsible enough to keep them contained to prevent 'whoopsie' litter.

I do believe that neutering later in life for an aggressive dog will not have a strong effect. It may help dog-dog aggression, but overall I don't think it will have a large influence on the dogs behaviors.

I totally agree with everything you said! I use to work at a shelter, and I feel like Im a hypocrite because my female dutchie is not spayed... But then I know that I am a very responsible pet owner. I dont know if I ever plan to breed her, I might, but then I think of all the other dutch shepherd breeders out there... So I am undecided, plus I would just die if spaying her affected her working ability which I doubt it would.. but what if???? So I too fall victim to the rumor, but I have heard other people that also work dogs say it has no affect them.

For females, I think spaying only has positive effects. You have no heats to deal with - which means no bothering males while working or getting off her game twice a year. And if hormones do come into play, then she has no estrogen making organs so she would have a high balance of testosterone to estrogen after the procedure.

I spayed Willow at 5 and saw no difference.

I'm not anti-breeding. I have bred and will continue to do so. Also, I think people that actually work with their dogs in any venue are far more responsible. Its just the idiots that make me crazy and unfortunately take up WAY too much of my time!

I won't spay Geyser until she's physically mature (for all the mentioned reasons), but when that time has come and my contractural breeding option is over, she's definitely getting spayed!

I'll bet it doesn't affect their work in a negative way, and like you said Christie, especially females. I think females are better workers anyway .

I dont mean to change the subject of the tread but I also heard that if you keep a female intact and dont breed, its bad for them? Opinions on that?

Madix was neutered at a young age per my trainer. Who I trust implicitly. I saw more focus pretty quickly following his neuter but I can't say farther than that. I do know that no one has mentioned him not being a good working dog - and we've tried our hand (paw?) at a number of different training venues and I've been pleased. My TD doesn't seem to think he's lacking either. I've seen it be very controversial on here, but I would like to get my hands on a dog that I can work AND show - Madix is not conformationally "pretty" although I think he's the handsomest! Point being that my next dog, if it fulfills that role, will be staying intact...

kimkim wrote:I dont mean to change the subject of the tread but I also heard that if you keep a female intact and dont breed, its bad for them? Opinions on that?

It's considered a risk for ovarian tumor, as well as mammary tumors, and a couple other cancers. BUT.... spaying a young female can lead to incontinence issues in the future. Kind of a catch 22, right?

Bumping up a rather old friend just to get my opinion in

But Replay just got fixed back in April, so around five and a half? Yeah, we'll go with that. Before she was spayed, she didn't really want anything to do with toys unless it was inside. But afterwards, I was throwing a canvas around for my cousin's Toller, and she started racing towards it, wanting to tug, etc.

Toby's neutered due to being from a shelter, and Replay was fixed just because of her heats (most of which had been silent :/). My next dog -or Working BC- will most likely not be fixed, since I do handle my dog's the right way and am not just going to let him get out to breed or anything like that. That's not because his working ability is like that, but it's apparently healthier for them to actually be intact instead of altered.

Just my two cents on the subject.

I have always been for fixing dogs as soon as they are around 6 months to a year, but I have always had females in the past, always. Now that I have gotten a male DS, Im starting to reconsider. I would never think of breeding (leave that to the pros ) but I have seen several people say that a male dog fixed too early will never mature and have a taller posture? I love a puppy, everyone does, but I also want my pup to become the most mature beast he can be I have been told on females though that if they are fixed before their first heat they have less chances of having cancer later in life. It seems to me that there are mixed opinions with this and even professionals will tell you different "facts" I had a vet tell me with Soba that the best time to get him fixed would be right after 4 months, seriously? Then again his father was only 8 months old when he was born! She said that it wouldn't change him or the adult that he will be in anyway. I think that I will wait at least until a year or older to get Merlin dog fixed, but an owner has to be someone who is willing to keep the dog on a short leash when the urge might hit them. The risks though for someone who has a female of course are higher. They would be the ones dealing with the pups and dogs can be pretty persistent. I have to agree with turnnburn52984, its a catch 22...... fix them early, it might help them not get this, but you fix them too soon and it can cause them to have that??? Whats a human to do?

The drawback for males that is mentioned is called "delayed growth plate closure." This means that the growth plates in the long bones stay open longer and you get a slightly taller dog. However, the statistical difference that everyone refers to really only happens if you neuter really young. The study was done on 7 week old puppies when the various shelter spay/neuter programs were being debated. However, the "thinkness" of a male dog is a secondary sex characteristic and will be effected by neutering before this occurs. As will the size of head and other things that we thing of masculine. In my opinion, it does also effect the maturation process in temperament. All of that being said, for many pet people, they may not want them to fully mature. If you don't care about the overall look of things, catching them before they start marking, seeking mates and defending territory may be beneficial.

For females, its mostly about preventing mammory cancer and pyometra. If you spay a female before their first heat, you reduce the chance of mammory cancer to almost zero. Every heat they go through until they are 2 increases their chances. However, I don't think that means they are likely to get it, just more likely than a spayed dog. Pyometra is a uterine infection that can be very severe and sometimes lethal. It does become more common the older a dog gets, so I spay all of my girls that will not be bred or when they are done breeding. I tend to wait until they are fully mature. Also, the growth plate closure issues are the same for females, just less pronounced.

So its a good thing Sadie was spayed early, she is tall enough already :dswink"
What about width?

I think with the males, waiting until the dogs are 15-18 months old is a good idea if the dog was purchased to be more then just a pet. I do believe that neutering too young can and will impact the dogs natural levels of aggression and protectiveness. Obviously if someone buys or adopts a male dog strictly to be a nice pet then neutering at an earlier age is no problem and might actually be better for the owners.

With the females, I always wait until they go through their first heat cycle. I was told years ago that spaying a female at a young age (prior to first cycle) can lead to an increased chance of incontinence when they get older. Also when it comes to real working dogs, (even though there are many who say bitch's cant work like males) I have seen a real difference in a few "hardcore" girls that were left intact compared to a few that were spayed at a young age. I asked a few master trainers about it and they agreed that they felt that spaying females does in fact alter their natural drives as well. Lastly for those who take working or sports serious and seek out the best of the best in dogs I think we can never say never about future breeding possibilities if we end up with an awesome dog. Those are the ones who should be reproducing. Lord knows we have too many animals being bred that shouldnt be!

I have been doing obedience with Koda and it has been going well. He is still intact and is just experiencing his sexuality. I noticed during training sessions that he would just walk over to a pole and want to mark it. After I re-gave the command he came flying towards me. It is defiantly affecting his working ability as a dog.

I'm going to keep training him and see how it goes, I'm hoping he will let it go as he is more focus on working the field.

Inside the house he's also been leaving the area and going to his crate to hang out. Do dogs express this? I notice that his blanket was wet when I went to see what he was up too.

Mentally he has changed though.. he is very loving and is very sensitive to petting. It stimulates him more than ever before and just wants people to pet him down. I do notice that he has slowed down though.. at a year and two months he was so fast. Now that he has gained more muscle he has crazy drive but not as fast as he once was.

For females I'm not sure.

My brain is a little fried right now so I'm not going to look for all the info I've had.. I really should start bookmarking this stuff it keeps coming up.

From the research I've done into this.. the gist of it:

- neutering/spaying INCREASES some types of aggression, increases fear responses
- it has been shown to increase some types of aggression in some breeds while having the opposite effect in other breeds
- it has been shown to change the structure of the dog if done before 18mo, bones grown longer and thinner, there is an increased risk of bone related diseases and problems later in life
- early neuters/spays have been linked to a highly increased likelyhood of bone cancer vs a smaller risk of mammary cancer and others usually quoted as a reason to spay/neuter
- females spayed before the age of 4 have been shown to have a shorter life span

Choochi wrote:- females spayed before the age of 4 have been shown to have a shorter life span

Now that's a new one to me. I'd appreciate the reference when you do have time and your brain is unfried

Ok I couldn't help it.. some quick finds

http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBo ... apShot.pdf

and I know Cheryl/CherCar has a good page with a bunch of info:
http://www.chercarkennels.net/rethinkingspayneuter.html

leih merigian wrote:

Choochi wrote:- females spayed before the age of 4 have been shown to have a shorter life span

Now that's a new one to me. I'd appreciate the reference when you do have time and your brain is unfried

that was based on a study in Germany of Rotts, I think a similar study was done with Goldens but that I'm pulling out of my behind and I think some one following the Rott study found imillar results when comparing data from pet populations in Europe and US

I <3 Google

I haven't read these just Googled and skimmed through the results so they might not be 100% on topic

http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-news/2010 ... evity.aspx
http://www.therottweilerchronicle.com/v ... er%20study
http://www.therottweilerchronicle.com/v ... %20Ovaries
http://www.therottweilerchronicle.com/v ... 20concerns
http://www.animalsheltering.org/resourc ... int_so.pdf
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

Choochi wrote:Ok I couldn't help it.. some quick finds

http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBo ... apShot.pdf

Parvene Farhoody the author of the above study I know is continuing to do research on this subject and she would be a good person to contact for more up to date info on the effects of spaying/neutering. She is also an amazing speaker and a great behaviourist, if any one ever gets a chance to attend one of her seminars, go for it!