Dutch Shepherd Forum

So I've read that a lot of you feed your dogs "raw." Asha is 10 weeks old, is it ok to give her raw meat, and if so what kind? Also we recently had a pig butchered and some of the cuts are pretty fatty, I was wondering if it was ok to feed her some of the fat? I cooked a rather large and fatty ham slice the other day and cut the fat off, with some of the meat attached then cut it into 1 inch pieces and gave her a few while doing some sit/come/stay training. OF course she loved it, but I'm wondering how much fat is too much?

1. Yes, raw is fine for that age. Start with chicken. You will want to feed 2-3% of her ideal adult body weight. Be sure to break up these meals into a *minimum* of 3 a day (4 is better) or you will get dire-rear.
EX: if you think she will be 40 lbs, you will want to start anywhere from 12.8 oz to 19.2 oz per day.
I start at 2% and then go to 2.5% if it looks like the puppy isn't at the right weight.
I always start with chicken because it is less expensive and the bones are easily chewed and digested. Some dogs do fine with skin-on, for others it can cause dire-rear. Get a package of chicken leg quarters to start and a good pair of kitchen shears (a good pair of kitchen shears can cut through chicken bones). A hammer is handy to have around, too if a bone seems to be a bit to tough to cut through. Also, if your puppy seems to not want to crunch through the bone or seems to be having trouble, just whack the bone with a hammer to soften/break it until she gets the idea & hang of it.
2. Stay away from extra fat, especially right now...too much = dire-rear.
3. initially you will want to stay away from added organ meat...too much organ meat = dire-rear. This is why I like CLQ's. The meat-bone-organ ratio is pretty solid. Wait until your puppy is doing great on chicken and you have figured out all of her nuances before adding another protein source. When I introduce a new protein source, I will do it for one meal once a day for about a week just to make sure they are tolerating it.

Here is a link to an earlier thread where I was explaining how I do it:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1273&start=20#p29371

Also, there are a couple of RAW feeding groups on Yahoo (from differing schools of thought on prey only vs. raw in general), but I don't know if it is okay to post links to those groups on here, so if someone would let me know?? Thanks.

Oh, and a couple of more things:
1. You will want to check the labels for the meat that you buy and make sure that the meat is not enhanced and that the sodium content is less than 100mg per serving.
2. When your puppy is a pro at Raw (you've figured out her digestive system and needs), you will want to add fish oil and some vitamin e.
3. When you decide to make the switch, it is best, IMO, to go cold turkey (no pun intended). The digestive processes for kibble vs. raw are different (kibble takes longer) and you could wind up with poo problems (dire-rear or constipation).

I went cold turkey too and did not have any problems. Mine just love raw. I started out on the Yahoo groups too and they really helped. I mostley had to get over the bone issue, but its all good now and my girls are sooooo happy !

but on the fat issue, dogs are simply not well-equipped to process fat. it is much more damaging to them than it is to us. avoid fat except for essential fatty acids, i.e., the ''omegas''. so whether it is left-over fatty meat scraps, pig fat, or chicken skin, it is just bad for them. now, fortunately, it sounds like you have sources of meat that are pasture-fed rather than corn-fed, which means that the very nastiest fats are being avoided within the meat - that there is great nutritional value in naturally raised animals.

^^^^^ seriously?
dan

I would use caution before jumping in and switching a 10 week old puppy exclusively to raw (which I don't think the original post was asking). For every person who says "I raised......blah, blah.... on completely raw," I can site at least one diet related growth issue caused by doing it wrong.

For puppies, to teach them how to chew, I usually start with whole chicken wings. The bones are small and malleable and easy on baby teeth. The occasional wing here and there won't hurt anything.

Although a little fat now and again isn't a big deal, you do not want to give much. 1- for a young digestive track that isn't used to it, it will slide right through and cause you major loose stool issues. Also, pork fat specifically has been linked with the onset of pancreatitis...probably in dogs with a genetic predisposition, but who knows. Lastly, the goal is to raise puppies with a lean body condition. Too much fat would have the same effect on them that it has on us. So tossing her a treat occasionally is fine, but I would not make it a normal part of her day to day.

Stacy's advice is awesome for feeding raw to an adult dog, or one that is almost done growing. There is still heated debate on whether dogs do better with carbs and veggies/fruits or not - so I will not got here. All of those of us who feed raw on a regular basis have what works for us. But again, I would caution against going that route with a puppy, especially if you haven't done it before.

Christie M wrote:But again, I would caution against going that route with a puppy, especially if you haven't done it before.

That is probably really good advice. And you are right in that I probably jumped the gun a bit...after I reread the original post, I don't think the question was really about an all raw diet. Sorry guys!!

Christie M wrote:For every person who says "I raised......blah, blah.... on completely raw," I can site at least one diet related growth issue caused by doing it wrong.

Christie - I would love some examples and further info on this. I am always trying to increase my knowledge of raw so that I can give appropriate advice to those seeking answers. I know, for example, that raw can be tricky with giant breed dogs (danes, mastiffs, etc). Thanks, Christie!

Fat is fine and needed in moderation in a raw diet. Smoked meats are not raw, and the salt content in ham also is not good. Processed meats are not what you want in a raw diet. You need to read the salt content even in raw packaged meat as dogs don't handle salt well.

Whoops should have mentioned it was a fresh ham, not smoked from a pig we had butchered.

Also, is It ok to give her raw pork and beef?

Yes. My dogs get chicken, pork, beef, rabbit, quail, lamb, turkey, sardines, and venison regularly.

Stacey, when you say sardines, do you mean fresh or canned? I assume canned are too salty but I've never checked.

I always go for fresh/frozen.

how about raw eggs twice a week is it ok?

raw eggs contain an enzyme that is bad for their skin and coats. if it were not for that eggs would be fine, should come from a safe local, free-range source to avoid salmonella and to provide the nutritional content not available in commercial eggs [ cage free is not free range - no better than caged ]. check out webMD - ''foods your dog should never eat'' my dogs love lightly cooked free range eggs - cooked deals with the enzyme that is harmful.

I've tried it once. I think I'll discontinue feeding it to my dogs.thanks John

you are welcome.

no big harm. i've done it like you. many do it regularly, but subtly harmful unless dog has worse reaction. dogs of people i know who have chickens and let their dogs eat raw eggs regularly really do have very poor skin and coat condition. nothing so horrendous that the owners really notice as far as i know, but i would want my dog to look [ and probably feel ] healthier than that.

it is fun to have good quality eggs and cook lightly scrambled eggs with other healthy stuff [ oregano, rosemary, fennel , sardines, etc ] and watch them go bug-eyed in delight. dogs do love warm food; they are instinctively drawn to it. they think the eggs are a tremendous treat.

i like that website. good reminder occasionally of what is bad for dogs. unlike eggs, a lot of the foods listed are very, very dangerous in one way or another.

johninny wrote:raw eggs contain an enzyme that is bad for their skin and coats. if it were not for that eggs would be fine, should come from a safe local, free-range source to avoid salmonella and to provide the nutritional content not available in commercial eggs [ cage free is not free range - no better than caged ]. check out webMD - ''foods your dog should never eat'' my dogs love lightly cooked free range eggs - cooked deals with the enzyme that is harmful.

I am sorry but this is not true. Since it has now been posted twice, in different threads, and people are following the advise, I found it necessary to post this link (there are many others de-bunking this myth):

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/fe ... od-or-bad/

this dog owners magazine article has too many misstatements and convenient ambiguities and contradictions to suggest that it is written from any unbiased position of scientific understanding.

eggs are a complete food source ---- try living on just eggs as a dog or a human. it is such a sweeping statement with no clarification or limitation offered that i have no idea what that means.

cooking eliminates the risk - does not even come close to eliminating the effects of raw egg white. i know you are against cooking, but this kind of flat-out misinformation is not a good sign where you are looking for understanding of complex chemical interactions and their attendant long-term health effects in the body. there is no back-up offered for this assertion or for any other of the myriad assertions made. in fact, most cooking reduces the binding effects [ biotin-destroying effects ] of egg white by 40% to a maximum of 80%, depending on the temperatures achieved and the even distribution of that maximum temp.

perfectly safe to feed several eggs a week - ???? based on what? - studies have shown quite the opposite. it seems the article seems to want the reader to make the leap that the biotin killing egg white is off-set by the biotin plentiful yolk, but this is pure nonsense showing no understanding of the mechanisms involved. [ i personally do not know if the assertion that egg yolk is rich in biotin is true. i have no particular reason to disbelieve that other than it is casually stated within an article that is so casual in its approach to facts and generally inaccurate. for purposes of this discussion, i will assume that there IS abundant biotin in egg yolk.] such a course of regular feeding of raw egg will lead to biotin deficiency in 4 to 7 months. the effects of egg white are cumulative, with incremental damage building over time.

the enzyme in question is , w/r/t biotin, one of the most powerful binders known in chemistry. it is so powerful that there are no chemical processes that we can apply to release the biotin. it is extremely efficient in its binding. ANY biotin in the yolk gets completely absorbed. further, the enzyme would quickly bind with any other biotin that is in the body or may enter the body thereafter for awhile. it lingers whereas biotin does not.

when egg white eliminates the biotin:
it crashes the body's ability to metabolize cholesterol;
it crashes the body's ability to manufacture the myriad essential fatty acids that are needed and are not available any other way. the body makes many specialized and extremely important fatty acids out of the more commonly available fatty acids that come in [only] free-swimming oily fish and oils derived therefrom, flax seed, flax oil, [ only] free- range birds and their eggs, and algae.
interfering with or eliminating this necessary ability of the body to convert ingested fatty acids into the many specific fatty acids that are actually required for specific functions in the body creates a cascade of negative effects which are slow but cumulative and if left unchecked will lead to ill effects, none of which are absolutely life-threatening but are extremely corrosive in their overall degradation of health.

most dog owners would not recognize a specific cause because of the generalized problems and because they are cumulative they seem more like aging - premature aging. --- but good nutrition, and, equally important, lack of bad nutrition prevents many bad aspects of what we generally and wrongly consider aging.

disrupting the processing and production of essential fatty acids has very extensive effects. the earliest effects are likely to be dry hair, itchiness, skin lesions, hot spots / fatigue, lethargy - increased vulnerability to bacterial and fungal infections.
reduced muscle coordination and reduced balance.
degradation of hearing and vision.
longer range, it effects everything that essential fatty acids keep working properly - proper heart function, joints and tendons, . tissue is weakened affecting, as noted, the heart but also significantly contributing to the development of hip dysplasia.

all the dogs i know that live with chickens and are regularly allowed to have some of the egg-laying bounty show all these signs of ''aging'' - way too early in life, but, in fact, they are not essential aspects of aging so they should be negligible in any healthy dog regardless of age til VERY near the end when cell replacement is no longer feasible for the dog's body.

finally, with regard