Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hi all.

Just asking you to validate or invalidate my intuition.

So here is the scenario. First Ptygo (Tee-go) is training well. At 4 months responds so well to the clicker and knows commands, sit, wait, stand, down, to bed, target, touch, place (between my legs in a sit) paw, come (with limited distraction), watch me and leave it. He loves dogs but doesn’t have the greatest manners. Very rambunctious and jumps on them. But he has big dog friends and a west highland terrier that he does great with, romping, and then respectful of them. He has been corrected by big dogs and that goes well. He is not aggressive in a mean way, but is a powerful pup.

Now here is my issue. I am going to puppy class once a week in an indoor space that with all the dogs is a bit cramped for 6 dogs and multiple handlers some couples. This trainer does two free play sessions every hour. One dog is bigger (5 month Berner) then a 11 week collie, 4 month mini aussie, 14 week beagle mix, 4 month retriever (that has the energy of a carpet), and Ptygo. The freaked out chiquaqua dropped out. Ptygo’s style of playing is very forceful and he uses his body a lot. He does not give up the dominant position with puppies and tends to push them into the wall or sit on them and will give chase. That said, I think his bite is reasonable, no yelping by play partners but you can tell he overwhelms them with his power and body.


Naturally other people do not like his style and tend to grab him off their puppies during the two free play sessions. The beagle mix definitely can become reactive in a mean sort of way. The only real “fights” have been the beagle and the collie. Lately Ptygo has liked messing with the beagle and at times he doesn’t see that the beagle is getting pissed off. When the beagle escalates, and people and dogs are too close and someone is grabbing Ptygo, he (Ptygo) can cross the line into more aggressive drive, crinkled for head, bearing teeth and holding on harder.

I hate these play sessions. They are too chaotic for me, they do amp Ptygo up and he has a hard time settling back into training so the whole session is exhausting for me. He does settle a bit and actually when a bit settled is by far the better trained dog in class. The trainer said last night as I chose to go outside instead of the second play session, “Yes, good idea, Ptygo escalates too much during these sessions.” I was really turned off by this, feeling that she just does not get high drive dogs. (BTW- a fight between the beagle and collie did break out again)


I don’t really want to return, primarily because of the free play sessions. It is only two sessions left, and I’m wondering if it is actually more harmful to Ptygo. He gets amped, pulls on the leash is very distracted so I have to pull him in and correct because trying to figure out distraction is a bit hard and I can't be clicking and rewarding when the trainer is talking. He will sit and down but not long and just gets stimulated and then we battle on the leash. He must know that I’m unhappy with the situation. So I wonder if this is a good situation. My gut says no but I’m wondering if I am missing the benefit of all of this. Am I being too wimpy, over-concerned, etc.

BTW, I did talk to his breeder who also trains and he confirmed my intuition but we did not get a chance to discuss as he is busy with the up and coming Working DS championships.

Just wondering what ya'll think of this as I like to consider all the perspectives. Are these play sessions common in classes? I haven't trained a puppy in many years.

Thanks for any perspectives on this.

Karin

I would excuse myself for the free play sessions. do you like the trainer/training other wise? I hate free play and all that stuff. Dogs dont know how big they are and then the people are the biggest problems. I do not feel you are wimpy at all, I would have stepped out for the free play time from day one. Go with your gut always. If you like the training, stay and continue and let the trainer know to let you know when there will be free play so you can go out of the training room and wait.

Yes, always listen to your gut...and I agree with what Lisa said. Skip the play portion.

I do find it kinda weird that the trainer lets all this go on...I mean, I would think that a class based socialization free play is supposed to be about positive interactions and teaching the owners about dog behaviours and warning signs to look for, proper manners, etc. As you know, there are different play styles with different dogs. Looking for compatibility in play styles should be discussed by the trainer, not just a free for all with all class participants. Seems that part is lacking... And some dogs will just not like each other for whatever reason and they shouldn't have to play with with another dog if they don't want to.

I'm in a class right now with Elli that has a 1.5 year old working GSD, a 14 week old GSD pup, Elli, and 3 yellow labs plus a westie. We don't have forced free play time, but after class everyone is given 15 minutes if they want any time to interact. ALL of the shepherds stay out of it. This is a big reason why I prefer the high drive/working breeds do training with trainers that know the breeds. The two of us with the older sheps have lots of training experience, so we're pretty straight forward with how interactions are going to be.

The trainer running the class is awesome, I grew up in her facility since I was 10 and I'm working there part time right now, but she raises sporting dogs and is used to dogs that want and need to interact with other dogs. She does understand that some of us may have different objectives, but we have to let her know. The labs are bouncing up and down, but don't have a mean streak in their body and class is the only place they can get any sort of dog relationships and their parents love it. The westie is sort of over powered and can get a bit nippy.

Elli adores other dogs to the point that she gets down right pushy and bitchy if they won't play with her and I'm trying to teach her that no dog is her personal toy. We have 6 dogs at home right now, so I want Elli to learn playing is for home and when we get to a facility, it is time to work. My goal with her is to compete and I can't have her trying to play with the dog next to her during a down stay, so it's better if she isn't reinforced on playing with anyone but me at training. It's actually quite funny because she's the exact opposite of Odin when it comes to strange dogs, but the end goal and training to get there is very similar.

I try to use the free play time to teach her impulse control, perfect her down stay, and just work focus exercises. I pick an open space away from the group and work her. We do a lot of "look at that" and reward for returning focus to me. The working GSD in my class is very reactive and dog aggressive, so his handler asks for volunteers to walk their dog by at a safe distance to work on thresholds. I think her goal is the CGC.

I wish if your trainer insisted on the free play, she would work more on matching the correct dogs and their play styles instead of throwing them all together. You have a large age group there and some very different breeds. If you do plan on staying in the class for the other parts, perhaps you can call your trainer, voice your concerns about that part of class, and just opt out of the playing. If the trainer insists on requiring your dog to be a part of it, I would leave.

Thank you so much for your comments!
Haven't decided if I will go back but perhaps, just to train around the distractions.
Everything you all say about compatibility in is reasonable and I agree that this would be a great discussion. I do think that many people believe that all dogs should get along perfectly and if they don't, then there is something wrong with that dog. The trainer actually encouraged this... "Yes, Tygo gets over-stimulated in here." My thing about not going back is that I have lost respect for her and would not continue with her. I don't think she gets the high drive dog and I don't think she gets high drive shepherds.

Ah well.... too bad. I fear I will have to travel much farther.

Thank you again everyone, very much appreciated.

for me, socialization is over rated. I dont care much for it. I never went out and socialized my dogs. Many people on here say its the humans that want the dogs to get along with everyone and I agree. I dont care nor do I want to throw my dog in a group of other dogs for free play. Sadie would go ballistic in a situation like that. I would never even entertain the thought. Thalie, who is mellow would not like it either. If you like the trainer and the rest of the work in the class, you can stay and then excuse yourself for free time. There have been discussions on socialization and if you watch dogs in life, particularly the owners, you will see its the humans not the dogs. I was at the vets one day just to pick something up, so the girls were in the car, There was one person at the counter with thier small dog and one person waiting on the side to talk to the vet, with a medium dog. The small dog was annoying the crap out of the medium dog, the medium dog was using alot of self control but showing some un easy ness, well, the owner of the small dog was getting testy at the medium dog. Its the dogs who say " leave me alone' That get the bad rap. I spoke up in defense of the medium dog and got a dirty look from the small dogs owner. oh well, OK, off my soap box now

I think dog socialization is greatly misunderstood. My dogs love to play or hang out with their dog friends, and you can seriously see them smiling as they are running around with each other. It is not unusual to have 5 to 10 dogs running around with each other, having fun, at the field up the street from me. But these are dogs I know and my dogs know, and they understand each other and get along.

I think the key is understanding the dog behaviours to know how your own dog and other dogs act and when it is good and when it is not. WAY to many people do not understand, like Lisa described with the vet story, so educating yourself is all you can do, and make your decisions based on that. Oh ya, and listen to your gut : )