Energy Reactive

[DebLundy]

I know that is a strange heading, but here goes.

As some of you know, I am researching the Dutch Shepherd as my next companion. I am interested in the intuitive connection I had with one who was in the shelter where I volunteer (who was subsequently accepted for training as a K9 officer). I feel that a Dutch would be a good match for me, but here is the rub. Both my husband and son have an energy which causes reactions from my Labradors and Jack Russells. All bark when they come into the house, and all will bark when my husband comes into the bedroom at night. They settle when I tell them to be quiet, and they see it is him. I am sure it is his energy rather than any particular action that causes this reaction.
So here is my question: If the Dutch is more a one person dog, and I will be the person, AND given my domestic relationships, would I be better to accept a less protective breed into our lives? I do not want to create a situation where my husband and Dutch feel that they have to confront each other, or that my Dutch feels s/he would have to protect me from the energy put off by my husband. Please note, that my husband is a lot of things but he is not a threat to me (or our dogs) physically or otherwise. He is one who believes the "Alpha" role is one of dominance, but though he is domineering, he is not necessiarily confident. He tends to tell them to do something and if they don't comply, he lets them get away with it. I am consistent in maintaining the rules, heirarchy, and ownership of valued possessions.

I hate that I may be answering my question -- that a lesser breed may be more appropriate for my domestic situation -- any advice on how to overcome this challenge is welcomed.

[johninny]

if a ds viewed your husband as a bully - effective or not effective - he would not be popular. if your husband can relate to the dog as more than a pet - laugh with it, show moments of surprising consideration or kindness, and generally engage in the kind of relationship that one has with a relative that you respect - then from what you have presented, the DS should be ok. you will need to be the one to set rules, but that sounds likely to be the case no matter how a DS gets along with everyone else.
on the surface, it seems you answered your own question, but it really depends on your husband's attitude. a Ds will pick up on finer points than your other dogs - which could be good [ seeing beyond the superficial bossiness ] or very bad [ a bully who is otherwise detached or disengaged and so has no positive value at all to the DS]. since the labs agree with the JRs, my gut says your husband does not respect the dogs [ and really like them ] and the dogs know it; if that is true, the DS would surely figure that out in a few minutes. whether that made for a worse situation than you have with the current dogs would be very dependent on the individual DS. at the least, i would suggest that your husband needs to be present when meeting any DS rescue for the first time so they get to approve of each other [ and, should you wind up adopting a dog, that also would help to have the DS see your husband as a member of the original rescue party, earning some brownie points for him].

[DebLundy]

John --

Your responses have been sooo helpful for me!

With the number of Dutch Shepherds I see in rescue, I have pretty much decided that rescue is the way to go for me. I also think that the shepherd breeds are more likely to have some "bad" (in other words, non-human preferred) behaviors minimalized or disappear through positive and consistent training. Most important, that training is adapted to the dog rather than the method. My husband responds much better to the dogs that "listen" to him and do what they are told, so the intelligence and trainability of this breed may be a positive. I also have plenty of time to continue molding his abilities as a canine leader rather than the so called "alpha" personality.

Ultimately my husband will have to choose the quality of his relationship with any of our companion animals, but choosing the individuals he interacts with will be more my responsibility. Aloofness toward others is okay, and resource guarding can be managed. I was concerned that the Dutch's natural protectiveness combined with its sensitivity might cause an over reaction to a perceived threat that might not be a genuine threat.

I will keep asking questions and thinking and rethinking the possibilities of having a Dutch in the future. Fortunately, I have plenty of time to make the best decision for my family.

[johninny]

it's impossible for me to have more insight without knowing your husband [ or son ]. speaking for myself and surprising to many people who have only known me in recent years, i am not a ''dog person''. i have a soft spot for all animals but i do not really want to be around most dogs. i make an exception for dogs that are really smart. and take such pleasure in sharing my life with DS that are smarter than so many people and definitely have a fine-tuned sense of proper behavior, unlike many people. before finding TD, i was considered by friends the very last person on earth likely to have and deal with a dog. maybe this applies to you husband, but to have the kind of dramatic turnaround i had, he would need to view a DS like a child to be nourished and like a partner to respect and collaborate with. lots of acceptable space short of that outcome as you rightly point out.

[Dutchringgirl]

he would need to view a DS like a child to be nourished and like a partner to respect and collaborate with. lots of acceptable space short of that outcome as you rightly point out.

I think this sentence sums it up perfectly.

I have found my two DS's to be one person dogs, but they are not protective of me, just will follow me around and not anyone else. My kids can jump on me and my girls may bark, but in a "hey, I want to play too!" kind of way.

If your husband will let things slide and if he asks something of the dogs and they dont comply and he dosnt stay consistent, you may have some problems on your hands, and some things getting destroyed in your home. I find this breed very tuned in to energy so they will pick up on your energy and your husbands energy, how every that energy may flow.

[Nordis]

I'm getting red flags here but I don't know where to put them, so I'll just toss the pile out and let you sort them. PLEASE keep in mind that nothing I say is from a position of judgement or meant to offend. I am only offering the thoughts that occur to me as I read your posts, and I only know you and can only speak to the few posts of yours that I have read here on the forum. That's why I say I'm not sure where the red flags belong. I'm completely open to being 100% wrong about anything I say. Ok, so don't be offended! I make good brownies and I share!

Both my husband and son have an energy which causes reactions from my Labradors and Jack Russells. All bark when they come into the house,

This is a problem. Maybe one of the dogs is setting them all off to barking? "I don't know what we're barking at, but something needs barking at so I'll bark too because that's my job." Or maybe it's a free for all. Maybe your husband and son resent or dislike the dogs? I know this likely isn't the case as you said Skeet is your son's dog. Being a bit breed prejudiced, I want to point fingers at the Jack Russels because little dogs are barky dogs and it's what they do, whereas Labs I would expect a happy excited Dad's home greeting barking. Happily, we have established that neither your husband nor son are a threat to you, the dogs, or your household. But, since they are part of the household, and since you say you maintain the rules, then I would say you have a new rule to issue. Unless you want them to bark when husband/son arrive, which is understandable for some cases.

If not, I suggest that if it is an individual that is setting the rest of them to barking and doing their territorial/protective duty, then you isolate the rest in a back area and work with that individual. If it is just a free for all, then I think maybe working with them to proficiency one at a time initially, then building up to two, then more, may be an effective approach. I'm thinking that many times some dogs learn by observing examples set by other dogs.

What would happen if, in this day of cell phones and other fandangles, your husband were to call you and let you know when he was at the end of the street? At this point you could put three dogs in pause mode elsewhere in the house, and bring the dog you want to work with to the door. Then as your husband comes home, you can give your quieting command and some high value treat as positive reinforcement when the desired quiet is maintained. After one dog has the idea and is good at it, switch to another dog. Give them all a chance to learn the new desired quiet behavior, then start working with them in small groups rewarding the successful and correcting the ones who react. I think it's also important to have your husband and son offer treats as well. After all, no wise dog gives a warning bark to a man bearing yum-ums!

Sure this will require time, and patience, and participation from your husband and son, but a short amount of time compared to all the pleasant silence and happy greetings to come is nothing!

Carry that thought a bit further and I'm thinking a very important consideration here is any new Dutch Shepherd in your home is going to wonder what is going on and I would expect most to join in the barking. Sure, the Dutch may be the first to learn to not bark while the others are barking, but why wait? And Labs certainly aren't stupid dogs, nor are Jack Russels, though I suspect most people don't realize they can train a small dog. I really don't think there are any stupid animals of any kind. It's just a matter of people not being able to speak, and not taking the time to learn, their language. In my experience this is even true for fancy goldfish and cockatiels!

The more I think about this, the more I think I understand why your husband and son are giving off a palpable resentment. No one likes to go to a place they are going to get yelled at when they arrive. I've already stated I don't like little dogs. If they don't bark at me and want to say hi and give me a wag I like them. But if all I get is barked at, after years of being the same guy with the same scent in the same place, well, then I just don't like the dog any more. I can fully understand and relate to being resentful of the dogs and having that energy when I come home to get barked at. And I imagine going into my own bedroom in my own home and being barked at is just an awful experience. What's wrong with me? I feed you, I pay your bills, I've lived here your whole life. Either you're so stupid you can't remember me, or you just don't like me, and either way, I don't like you. But I tolerate you because I love my wife/mother.

I think changing this "welcome home" behavior will really help everyone very much.

and all will bark when my husband comes into the bedroom at night. They settle when I tell them to be quiet, and they see it is him.

Several times I've gotten the sense that you wear the pants in your family. I expect you do so quite fashionably as well! (That's a joke.) I've heard a story of a friend who stopped an aggressively charging, barking dog headed for him and his wife by taking a very direct and commanding tone, pointing in the direction the dog came from, and telling him to get right back where he came from. When you think about it it makes sense. That's why some people tell us they use German or some other language during protection training and bite work. Because the police don't want the bad guy to call the dog off of himself.

Maybe you can empower your husband to enforce the "quiet" command, and then reward them with their treat. As it stands, you're at the top, then it's the dogs in whatever order they have, then it's your husband and your son.

You mention the possibility of a situation where your husband and your Dutch will be confronting each other. With the current established chain of command, I see there is a chance of that happening. With an unknown background that comes with a rescue, that chance could increase to where a seemingly normal and mundane action can generate a very unexpected response from a dog. I say empower your husband and your son to be more active in the family, with a firm voicing of established consistent commands, and a gentle hand with a job well done treat.

I am sure it is his energy rather than any particular action that causes this reaction.

I agree. I'm really feeling it's resentment created by the dog's behavior that we easily perceive as "he doesn't like me."

So here is my question: If the Dutch is more a one person dog, and I will be the person, AND given my domestic relationships, would I be better to accept a less protective breed into our lives? I do not want to create a situation where my husband and Dutch feel that they have to confront each other, or that my Dutch feels s/he would have to protect me from the energy put off by my husband. Please note, that my husband is a lot of things but he is not a threat to me (or our dogs) physically or otherwise.

Given that you've stated what you're really interested in is an intimate, one on one relationship with a German, Belgian, or Dutch Shepherd, I'm not seeing much of an alternative. But there are many other breeds you can find this connection with though, as you know. My next suggestions would be an Australian Shepherd or a Retriever, but I still think any breed will respond the same way, picking up on what four other established dogs do routinely, and joining in with enthusiasm. I suspect the perception would be, "we're protecting the territory, and we're doing it loudly!"

He is one who believes the "Alpha" role is one of dominance, but though he is domineering, he is not necessarily confident.

Hopefully you can instill in him a means of finding his confidence while learning alternatives to dominating. First you'll have to get him past any resentment and to want to work with a dog. My feeling is currently the dogs are viewed as your pets, my wife's pets. Even Skeet is possibly viewed as my son's dog but really my wife's dog and my dog, but my mom takes care of him. They will do what she says but they don't obey me. With this as an accepted expectation how can one be confident that the dogs will obey them? I see the dogs as part of a family unit. Just as is the mother, father, and son. In a good home with two parents children are expected to obey both because the parents are focused on what is best for the children.

He tends to tell them to do something and if they don't comply, he lets them get away with it. I am consistent in maintaining the rules, heirarchy, and ownership of valued possessions.

Of course I'm stating the obvious here: He's got to enforce the commands he gives, with no assistance from you. Easy way to do this for most dogs is positive reinforcement of desired behavior. But can you get him to pick up a treat and give the command then the reward for as long as it takes for the dogs to accept the new positions in the chain of command? And again, can you help him past his resentment of the dogs that has built up over time so he sees the value in putting forth the effort for a new dog? If four of your partner's dogs don't like you, would you be enthusiastic about getting a fifth?

With the number of Dutch Shepherds I see in rescue, I have pretty much decided that rescue is the way to go for me. I also think that the shepherd breeds are more likely to have some "bad" (in other words, non-human preferred) behaviors minimalized or disappear through positive and consistent training.

I don't think there is anything a Shepherd can't learn to do. A few here on the forum can even type! I do think that most "bad" and "aggressive" Shepherds in shelters are completely misunderstood/misinterpreted by the shelter staffs. However I do have the concern that certain triggers learned from early traumatic experiences can lead to unpredictable reactions. Because of this I am wary of rescues. And as I become older and less Supermanly, my ability to physically control stronger dogs diminishes. Flipping the coin to the other side yet again, the percentage of these individuals is low when I consider all of the rescue dogs I've known.

I have to add to this that it seems to me that most of the people here are really connected with the Dutch Shepherds and the other people. I am with a rescue now, and proud that I have been given the opportunity to be in the position to be a positive experience in Rorhin's life, to be a better second experience. I give all the credit to our getting along so well to Ms. Foster and Trudy at North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue. I told Trudy what I was looking for, and based on their recommendation I said yes and Rorhin is wonderful. I'm honored to be his friend and he does very well at what I need him to do. He's not a perfect puppy, meaning he was 10 months old when I got him, so I didn't get that really important developmental period, but he's smart enough that once I figure out how to do things he can do them for me. I feel all the areas we are still not connecting on as far as being a team are because I'm not speaking Dutch Shepherd properly. Once I find the right words and behaviors, he's already learned it and we instantly pass that issue.

Most important, that training is adapted to the dog rather than the method. My husband responds much better to the dogs that "listen" to him and do what they are told, so the intelligence and trainability of this breed may be a positive.

If only your goal was to simply add a Dutch Shepherd to your family, then I would say let it be his dog! But you want your one on one, and I certainly don't blame you for that. Though I've seen and heard people speak of the intimate connection we're talking about here many times, I still consider it a very rare and precious thing to find. Obviously the Dutch you spent time with was not supposed to go home with you, but I'm certain you'll find your perfect friend at the right time for all of you because you're tuned in enough to feel it.

And I'm still waving my little flag to impress how important I feel it is that the dogs you currently have do fit into the same category of being trainable. They already do the stuff for you so they know the commands and expected behavior, but they won't do it for him because they don't have to.

I also have plenty of time to continue molding his abilities as a canine leader rather than the so called "alpha" personality.

New clothes with pockets for treats!

Ultimately my husband will have to choose the quality of his relationship with any of our companion animals, but choosing the individuals he interacts with will be more my responsibility.

I question this. If you decide who he does and doesn't interact with, won't that be undermining his canine leader position? As well, won't it be bringing the possibility of him questioning his abilities, and therefore detrimentally affecting his confidence? Really, as one of the two founding members of the family everyone will have to interact with him and everyone should be expected to obey if he commands. Oh No! Archie Bunker just possessed a tiny part of my brain!!!

Aloofness toward others is okay, and resource guarding can be managed. I was concerned that the Dutch's natural protectiveness combined with its sensitivity might cause an over reaction to a perceived threat that might not be a genuine threat.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying you are allowing the dogs to be aloof to your husband and son. This means they can ignore any command given by them and that sometimes the dogs can get away with resource guarding. One thing I know for certain is things have to be consistent or all the training in the world doesn't amount to anything. You make the rules, so are you saying that we do or don't have to follow them? If you say we have to do what husband and son tell us to, then do we, or can we get away with not obeying?

I will keep asking questions and thinking and rethinking the possibilities of having a Dutch in the future. Fortunately, I have plenty of time to make the best decision for my family.

And from your introductory thread:

My fear is that I am being foolish considering this type of dog temperament when I am pushing the south side of sixty.

I really can't recommend enough that you connect with Trudy at North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue, as well as other breeders and dog people like you mentioned.

With both of my companions, I was very clear and expressive about my lifestyle and what I was looking for. Rorhin does what I do. If I go out he goes out. If I rest, he rests right here with me. I rest a lot. He goes out to find a place, then comes back in. Initially he was used to being outside a lot, but he quickly decided I'm more fun than being outside I guess as now when he's done he waits to come back in. We meander about the house and talk about how smart and handsome he is, and how odd and quirkish I am, then we make fun of the cat, those two play some, we have meals at the same time, and then we rest some more. I would not be able to keep up with a dog that needed to work and play all day. Trudy and Ms. Foster both felt that Rorhin was ideal for what I was asking for. Rorhin hasn't once complained that we don't get out enough. We do have constant interaction and conversation which is where much of our shared understanding of speaking Dutch Shepherd and People to each other is accomplished.

As I've said on the forum here before, I really feel what is most important to these dogs isn't so much the need to have a job, but the desire to be with their person. Understand that I am not saying that all Dutch Shepherds will be fine with mindlessly staring at a wall all day, and many will certainly want/need the standard work play work play work crash. I am saying there are exceptions in the breed and the people familiar with the breed can spot them.

I would prefer to cry at the end than sigh with relief. Every dog deserves someone to love them for who they are -- quirks and all -- mine do, and always will.

Well, poo on you for making me cry!

Please don't feel you need to respond to all of this. I'm only sharing my thoughts, and certainly don't expect you to answer all of them. Know that I have a habit of talking a lot in an effort to clearly convey what I'm saying. I agree that it's nice to see another wonderful person taking the time to learn what they need to know for having a Dutch Shepherd in their life. This means the future holds for us a very happy Dutch Shepherd and a very happy Dutch Shepherd person!

I wish for you all success and Much Peace!

[DebLundy]

Hi Nordis --

Thank you so much for your terrific response. I appreciate your candor, and willingness to address the red flags. The situation is a red flag for me, too, which is why I brought it to the forum.

After reading your post, I really tried to be present and observe the behaviors (both human and canine) individually rather than bound into the "this always happens" bundle. What I found is a combination of reality and expectations. Because we live in western Wyoming, we regularly have moose, deer, elk, bears, and the occasional mountain lion come through our property. So the current dogs alert to any changes in the yard -- and for me, that is a good thing. Last night when the dump trucks rolled in, letting us know my husband and son were home, the dogs barked. I called them over to me, redirected their focus (sit, down, come, etc.) and they were quiet when the men came in. Skeet, one of the Labs, instigates the alert. Divot, the Jack Russell, is the last to quiet. The overall energy in the house last night was calm and the dogs reflected that. Reminder to self: yelling at dogs to be quiet is totally ineffective. Worse it is lazy. Redirecting their focus, and giving them something to do actually works.

Next I watched the interractions through dinner. My husband and son were affectionate toward the Labs and the older Jack Russell (Comet is deaf and blind and 14 years old). Divot (12) lay down at my feet and was quiet. He is mostly ignored or resented by my husband and son -- which I realized brings me to Divot's defense. Not a good idea. As his leader, I have allowed him my "loyalty" over that which he thinks I give to my husband and son, therefore, he views himself on a higher plane than he should. I so appreciate you calling me out on this. Hard to admit to, but there it is. I need to set better boundaries for all of us.

Though I never really considered that I wear the pants in the family, I suspect that I do. Generally I let things roll, but when there is genuine conflict, I am the one who looks for a solution that is fair and equitable to all parties. In most situations if no one steps up, I will. So in that regard, when the family steers off course, I look for the compass or North Star rather than looking to blame one party or another. So, when I mentioned that I would be responsible for choosing the dog, I meant the breed, not the individual. I know that Labradors fit well into our dynamic. They are friendly, love anyone who throws the ball or offers a kind word and a scratch behind the ear. They are mostly obedient, hang in the yard, and enjoy all the members of the family. They are not terribly demanding or judgmental. Nor are they a threat or a challenge. They are the perfect dog for the males in the family. I love them dearly, and have a great relationship with both of them. But . . .

Although I also adore my Jacks, I do not want the direct challenges they present in a future dog. The very things I love about them are the reasons I won't have another. My husband and son chose both the breed and the dogs against my better judgment at the time, but they have been great dogs for me -- most of the time.

So, perhaps, a Lab-type dog would be the better choice. I know it would be an easier choice. And although many think I am a bit nuts, I would never (seriously, never) bring a fifth dog of any breed or mix into this pack. Bruin, the four year old Lab, has finally clicked into adulthood, and is becoming a wonderful companion. Skeet is a great dog, goofy and fun. The Jacks are near the end of their journey, although both are in good overall health and still enjoy hunting rodents and patroling the barn. And when Divot curls up in the hollow of my arm and snoozes with his head on my shoulder there is little better. Nonetheless, when altogether, gathering up four dogs -- each often going in an opposite direction -- out in the pasture, is interesting to say the least. Pack behavior changes relationships, and I am looking forward to a one to one in the future. But not too soon . . .

Your thoughts on rescue and working closely with those who match personalities, mirrors mine. I, too, am a little concerned about the baggage a dog brings through no fault of its own. Your advice is well received, and working through breed rescue offers a much better match.

Again, Nordis, I thank you for your insights and candor in responding to my original post. I tend to use the forum to bring forth those issues that I think are red flags and see if there are suggestions to overcome them. All dogs have value to add to our lives and relationships. And, although I love the breed, it is always best to introduce complementary additions into existing relationships. Thanks for helping to remind me that I have doubts about the "rightness" of a Dutch for valid reasons, and denying those doubts is not helpful for any of us. Time may change many things in this dynamic. So I will still listen and read and any further thoughts you may have will be welcomed.

Oh, and we should exchange brownie recipes -- mine are pretty good, too.

Give Rorhin a hug and thank him for being such a wise and gracious companion for you.

Deb Lundy

[johninny]

since there is nothing specific you wish to accomplish or prove with your next dog except have that intense one-on-one relationship that you mentioned, it seems to me the ideal dog to look for would be a DS ''mix''. may not be identified as such, but you can look for likely candidates and will know when you find one. my impression is these dogs often have all the qualities [ precise behavioral and mental match ] that a DS has but with much less edge. from my perspective it can be the best of all worlds. and for your family, finding the right mix would get you exactly what you want while still being a fine choice for everyone else. i think DingaRoo and Tyson, here on the forum, are great examples of what can happen when you throw a little DS magic into a mixed breed dog; they are DSs with more charm and less obnoxious behavior.

[Nordis]

Hi Deb!

Apologies for my sporadic visitations to the forum here, but among other things I've been saving the galaxy for all of us, and as it does for all of us, life has stepped in and made demands. It's great to hear that maybe I helped you a bit! Thanks for that!

Wow! Wildlife in the yards! Eek! This reminds me of something I used to suggest to pond owners who kept losing their fish to birds and raccoons. There is a product called the ScareCrow. It's a sprinkler with a motion detection system. I checked and they are still on the internet and available for purchase. Basically, it's just like our motion detection activated lights that come on when something wanders into the area, except that the active ingredient here is water pressure! It's very effective at keeping guests away. And if you get some you'll have to share stories about setting it/them up, because those are always fun to hear! It's a bit of messing about to get the proper distances and areas covered at first with one or more units. And we didn't have winters and freezing water to worry about then either, so I can't tell you how that would work, but I'm a plant person and though I love my cat, I'm not as fond of having large ones about! So keeping the wild things off the property is a good thing in my mind, as well as any of the wild things that the wild things bring with them. Of course you may decide to turn the system(s) off when the dogs go out, and when you're expecting visitors! In my head, this is all very funny.

It's neat to read your observations from your altered perspective, and to see what you discovered. Thanks for sharing all of it.

Dump trucks! Well, now we know that your husband and son aren't sneaking in unannounced! Certainly all the dogs recognize the trucks when they hear them and know that means husband and son are soon to arrive. This means there is really no excuse for a territory protection reaction. At first I was wondering if maybe they wafted into the room riding owls or just appeared from a puff of smoke!

In my experience, multiple dog homes seem to have been quite easy when each one is addressed as an individual in the group setting. By this I mean everyone comes and sits in front of you. You've got your treats to give out, and you say this is for Skeet, this is for Divot, this is for... and you just continue on for several rounds. If Divot is barking and jumping about instead of sitting quietly then you ask him to correct, and if he doesn't, you move on to the next one who is doing what you want them to do. If someone tries to intercept, then a command to return to waiting position explaining that it's now Skeet's turn can be helpful after so many repetitions. If you're interested in establishing a pecking order, maybe you go in that order. Or, to break up the monotony and keep everyone on their paws and paying attention, you can skip about randomly.

I think this would be an excellent way of redirecting behavior during those times you know to expect them to be barking at what you don't want them to bark at. In your future success I can imagine a scenario where the trucks are heard and everyone lines up, sitting out of the way, but not far from the door because they know this is now treat time if I'm quite! Our dogs are really smart. There is no reason why we can't expect them to learn to do something like this. And easier for you once you have one dog doing it, because others will learn by example that much faster. And we know Skeet is the one to start with!

Here it would be, "Skeet, husband and son are coming home. Go to the hall and sit. Good sit, good quite" treat, and onto the next. If Skeet starts to sound off, it's, "That's not sit quiet. Sit quiet." Treat. Maybe keeping a cookie jar/container by the door with the food will make the whole experience easier for you and the other thumbed ones. For dogs that greet the home comers, maybe husband and son can agree to take part in the ritual and share greets and treats to well behaved dogs, though perhaps asking them to wait until the noisy guy quiets down may not be their idea of relaxing after working hard, so maybe after you've started an established a routine.

Remember you aren't the only person in this. It's natural for you to take the under dog under your wing when you see he's being left out. If you have open communication in the family maybe you can present your observations (maybe concerns is a better, less accusing word) to husband and son and ask if there is a way resolve their dislike of Divot, or at least ask for pointers as to what he does that they don't like so you can work on changing those behaviors.

I know this is a tricky area, and don't think that I'm perfect here. Unfortunately there are many dogs I know that I don't want anything to do with. Fortunately I don't share a home with them! I don't mind a dog saying this is my territory, bark bark bark. But I certainly don't like one that repeats the message over and over and over and over. Even worse when it's my territory I'm in! Also, I've found I don't like dogs that growl and/or lunge at my dog! No surprise there I guess. (It's a Jack Russell actually!) I view these individual dogs as untrained, a potential vet bill or confrontation, and just unfriendly. I know better than this. I know that the dog is likely a sweet enough dog, and that it's actually the person who hasn't trained the dog that is responsible. It's difficult, because I don't want to not like the dog, or the person, and I don't want to be judgmental, but I simply cannot override the primary focus which is the safety of the one I'm responsible for. On the same thought, I can remember to not react to a dog that always barks at me. But sometimes it's really hard to keep my opinionated mouth shut when talking to friends who don't have the same "well behaved, well trained dogs" background I come from!

It occurs to me that, as I recall your saying they bark at night when husband comes into the bedroom, perhaps there is some completely different reason for the behavior. It sounds like they are very protective of you, said Captain Obvious. And since we know there is nothing to worry about with your husband and your son, maybe they are picking up on some energy or unconscious thought process you have that you're not even aware of? Or perhaps Skeet or one of the others has experienced some event in the past which leads to the current behavior. Just a thought. I'm stuck thinking it's pretty uncommon for family dogs to behave this way for no reason.

My middle name could be Tangent.

I don't see it as a bad thing that you play favorites, so to speak. It's normal for all of us. At least you are giving consideration to how things may affect the family dynamics. As long as you don't ignore anyone, I think you're ok. And with your mediating, hopefully husband, son, and Divot can move toward a closer relationship.

From my observations, I think you'll be likely to find that special soul companion as you found with the one at the shelter in any breed. And considering this, I'm recalling you saying you were looking for a dog you connect with, so perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're meaning. But either way, barring specific traits that you don't want such as size, coat type, excessive drool, genetic complications, blah blah blah, I know people have found those special connections with all breeds of dogs and other animals. It's a beautiful thing to see, and so wonderful to be a part of. I also know that not everyone with a dog can understand this special type of relationship.

I'm biased to the pointy eared shepherds. The Dutch Shepherd takes everything I love them for and puts it all in one package. So my opinion is go Dutch Shepherd! I really don't think there is anything that doesn't require thumbs that they can't do.

For me, I limit my selection to the specific breeds I want to pick from. The best advice I can offer to you is nothing you don't already know. Be open and alert to the opportunity when it presents itself. That connection may be found in an individual you aren't considering. At the same time, I say limit your search to the breeds that appeal to you, obviously, and don't feel you need to discount any particular breed because of their textbook stereotype. I think any dog you do get will be lucky and loved and will love you even more. I've found that usually I can feel when the one I'm supposed to connect with is soon to join me. I suspect that you will also know when this happens for you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think a Dutch Shepherd is a bad choice for you. Everything you said about the Labs is just as true for Dutch Shepherds if you spend the time to let them be that way. Socialize even one with issues properly and enough, and they can learn a new way of seeing and reacting to people and the world.

I share your concerns (my perception of what concerns you) about the unpredictability of a dog that is a breed that has the potential to be a "bite type working" dog. From experience I am even more wary of dogs that have a past that is unknown to me prior to joining my pack. Given the choice and money, I'd pick a puppy every time since I can ensure what it will and won't do in any given situation and will rarely if ever need to worry about an unexpected reaction to a situation. But as I said, I've yet to be surprised by Rorhin. The only difference from one person to the next is how many "really"s they get in his "I really like you!" greeting. He's obviously never read the Dutch Shepherd Manual. And again, Trudy and Ms. Foster at North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue helped us get connected, so it can be done with rescues as well as puppies. I must admit I'm a bit jealous that he's not more stand offish of people we don't know. But I'm happy to let him enjoy life all the same.

Honestly, I've never kept a Jack Russell. I don't know what is training, or lack of, related and what is breed characteristic. I do know the small dogs that have been in my family learned and behaved just as the big ones do. This is what leads me to the opinion that a Chihuahua can be trained and can learn that pee and poo are done outside, not inside, and can learn to not bark at every person they meet. I could be wrong but I figure if I've seen it on television doing what acting dogs do, then that breed can be trained to behave. The question is, can I speak the language? Can I do the training? What I'm saying is I know nothing of Jack Russells. Could have just said that! But it applies to all breeds I think. Now, talk about a wolf mix, and I fall into the category of people who think better safe than sorry. Unfortunately I choose to err on that side when it comes to Pits as well. But I've had several stand offs with Pits whose owners don't seem to comprehend the words leash, fence, or restrain. Besides, they have floppy ears and they aren't shepherds. I was attacked by a Doberman when I was a child. I've no aversion to the breed now though. But I also know that just because it's a German Shepherd and I like them doesn't mean I can go stick my fingers through the fence.

I don't see why anyone would call you Mrs. Cashew because you brought another dog home. Anyone who would just obviously never grew up with 8 or so dogs. Love, Mr. Almond.

I think it's wise that you recognize your current limits though. The only exception I can see when you may realize that "seriously, never" doesn't necessarily mean absolutely never might be when you find the connection with a dog that you were originally asking about and that dog told you it's a bit earlier than expected, but this is the time, so bring me home.

I think the time you have now is best spent in furthering your education you've begun so when it is time for your new friend you'll be that much more prepared, and focusing on smoothing out your current rough spots at home. And of course this means a so much more better experience for you both/all. Maybe in the interim you can meet a Dutch Shepherd or Malinois or someone and become the one special friend they really like who's not part of their family, and that will give you some more fuel for your "get a Dutch" fire. (See how I did that!?!)

I can definitely relate to your experiencing personal time with Divot. Sevin and Rorhin both enable me to maintain my positive outlook. I'd be lost without them supporting me and sharing our space. It's not an exaggeration to say that they bring laughter in our lives every day.

Fanny packs and pockets. Full of treats. Yummy treats! It doesn't have to last forever, but do it as long as it takes for trips across the pasture to become moving as a unit as opposed to a chaotic splattering! Hahaha. That made me laugh. Taste and tummy trumps smelling pretty much every time. Start naming points and areas, so you can incorporate their need to run. That way rather than running amok, they can run to a specific area, then return for a reward for job well done. Free roaming is fine, and when you want cohesion again the come back command will work. And so on. Or maybe four(three?) toys. Each having their own. They'll need time to learn which one is theirs and which isn't first, and to leave other dog's toys alone. This will come after mastering the sitting in the hall getting treats and watching the others get treats. Only this time it will be rawhide chews that don't last long. Here's your chewie, take it to your spot and enjoy. After they've figured out this routine, then it's toys instead of chewies. Take it to your spot and chew on it. And good luck with teaching them to not steal each others toys! It can be done. Again, a pocket of edible bits will work wonders. Now that they have their toys, they get to learn to bring them to you, and not just drop them at your feet, but actually hold them in your hand waiting until you close your fingers and take it. Now you don't have to bend over and pick things up! And Skeet is around for helping out with the slow learners that are leaving their toys behind them. Skeet, bring Divot's elephant. (It was the best choice, trust me.) If toy taking isn't an issue and they can be left around the house, have them bring their toys to you in exchange for their dinner.

Now move the techniques outside and the distant neighbors spying on you will be amazed at the nutty dog lady and her pack of puppies soundlessly passing across the meadow. Oooo!

Again, Nordis, I thank you for your insights and candor in responding to my original post. I tend to use the forum to bring forth those issues that I think are red flags and see if there are suggestions to overcome them. All dogs have value to add to our lives and relationships. And, although I love the breed, it is always best to introduce complementary additions into existing relationships. Thanks for helping to remind me that I have doubts about the "rightness" of a Dutch for valid reasons, and denying those doubts is not helpful for any of us. Time may change many things in this dynamic. So I will still listen and read and any further thoughts you may have will be welcomed.

Thank you Deb. Reading this touches me. It's nice to think I may be helping when sharing what I'm hearing in my head. I agree and am moved when you speak of the value our furry friends in our lives. From what I can tell you're a great person, another great person here on the forum, who wants only the best for everyone involved. Thanks for your kind words.

Please don't discount Dutch Shepherds as one of your options. As you said, you have some time, and I'm sure time will change things because you are making efforts to address current situations. It is my "speciest" belief that there is a Dutch Shepherd that is "rightness" for every positive situation! (I love it when I make myself laugh!) And as I said, Any dog that gets to come to your home will be a happy and lucky dog!

Let me see. No special recipe, just store bought brownie mix for me, but two batches. Whatever kind of nuts added if I'm feeling nutty. Pour one batch into a pan, then add two cans of cherry pie filling on top, spacing the precious cherries out appropriately. Then pour the second batch of batter on top. Bake for about 1.5 hours or more at 300°-325° until they test done. Serve immediately when still hot with ice cream or not. Beware of sugar over dosing. Brownie Popper Cherrygasms! My own monstrous creation!

I'll happily eat your brownies too! I'm a bit decadent in that area.

Hugs and thanks to Rorhin are a many times daily event here. I'm way too dependent on him and Sevin for my companionship. I've passed on your hug to him as well! Thanks! Many hugs and treats to you and yours as well.

Much Peace to you Deb!