Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hey Guys/Gals,

So I didn't see a section for training equipment/gear/etc. so I hope this is in the right forum. If not then my apologies in advance. Does anyone here use Electric Collars? I've read so many wild reviews from great to terrifying, that I figured I'd hop over here and ask . I just had a couple questions I thought might sway me left or right on them. What is I guess, the primary purpose of the collar? Obviously it's not to electrocute a dog in to submission lol. But do you use it to help train dogs to heel, or what? I've never used one, and I've never met anyone who did. So I don't really know what they are about. And do they hurt when you use them? Or do they just create a sensation...? Sorry if this is a noob question lol. I just hate relying on reviews because they can be really biased depending on the person writing them. If the person thinks it's cruel, obviously they are going to write a cruel review regardless of how well it performs or if it doesn't cause any harm.

I am a YAH for Ecollars, as long as you are very schooled in their usage, and I mean VERy. They can really ruin a dog if used improperly, even by mistake. I was taught how to use then when I did Ring Sport. I really like them as a training tool for off leash work, and working towards off leash work. I did not use it for heal or basic obedience work, that was done with leash and collar and tugs, It was for the more advanced work and off leash work and recalls.

With Thalie, I only needed it on vibrate as she was so sensitive. With my Mal, I did use it on the shock feature, but very selectively. You also must teach the dog what it means as well.

We all shocked ourselves so we knew what we were doing to our dogs. Although I knew darn well what it felt like from all of the times I grabbed the electric horse fence at my farm LOL.

If you want to use one, find a trainer...a very good one... and please make sure you have the full understanding of what its used for, otherwise,your dog will never be the same.

I've never used an e-collar, personal preference. You're just wanting opinions in the event you feel you need one down the line in sport training, not to train your pup, right?

Rob C wrote:But do you use it to help train dogs to heel, or what? I've never used one, and I've never met anyone who did.

Dutchringgirl wrote:I am a YAH for Ecollars, as long as you are very schooled in their usage, and I mean VERy. They can really ruin a dog if used improperly, even by mistake.

Ditto...triple ditto, even.

I would never start out with an e-collar for basic obedience. If you need something to grab your dog's attention, try a prong first but ONLY with the supervision and training of a professional trainer. Just like any tool, if used incorrectly, a prong or e-collar can have negative effects. If you don't NEED one - if you aren't planning on doing ring sports or other off-leash work (e.g. nose-work) - I wouldn't give it another thought. Basic obedience (sit, stay, down, heel) can be taught with positive reinforcement, conditioning, and marker training.

I have never used one but know that there is a place for them. BUT it requires good training (for you especially) or you can run into I think they are called superstitious fears, training your dog to be fearful of things. Just to get an idea you might watch a few Michael Ellis videos, you can find them on You Tube. I also know that there is a place for prong collars but here I have experience. In the early 90s, I made a 100 lbs GSD very dog aggressive by miss-using a prong collar. I will always regret that, what a young stupid idiot I was. Right now I'm looking for a good trainer that knows about prong collars.
So, my two cents, there is a place but do not slap one of these collars on and use willy-nilly without knowing what you are doing or you can ruin a good dog.

there is a current discussion of e-collars going on in ''product reviews''. however, that discussion, tho worth reading, is all positive; it is a follow-up to a similar question i had. you can find that discussion by putting ''dogtra IQ'' into the search function - which i suggest reading BEFORE reading the product review. pay particular attention to what Christie M had to say about using them. despite my current, very positive progress report, i would not use the collars for basic obedience. i brought 3 DS puppies into my house in a relatively short period of time and was having trouble perfecting some things like long-distance recall which needs to be really great when they are a pack in public.

the bottom line is take to heart completely what others have already said here. and one of those things is like Christie M said in her original advice to me: the dog must know the command/what is expected of him already; he must know exactly what he is doing wrong and how to correct it. then use the collar as mildly as necessary to get their attention - it is not punishment; i am a novice, but i would venture a guess that if a dog reacts as if he is being punished, then the collar is being misused in any number of a multitude of ways. as a non-professional, i have followed all the advice i have gotten here, used it sparingly and specifically to achieve better results where the dogs already know their lessons, and have been lucky that the dogs have reacted just perfectly - without fear and without a sense of punishment.

[one more note of caution if you do use one: stimulation levels should be as low as possible to get you the desired attention - THIS VARIES WILDLY from dog to dog, so do not take anything for granted when starting out. also, moisture and collar positioning/tightness can cause huge variation even when dealing with the same dog. so when starting each time, err on the side of low stim until you are sure the setting will not freak out your dog. the ''nick'' setting that causes my middle pup [ 9mos ] to look like a fly may have buzzed by - which is enough for my purposes - causes my 6-month old to fly through the air as if suddenly tossed by someone.]

I am in favor of them in some situations. About the only time I use them is when I'm doing off leash - they are really helpful when working at a distance.

With Cino all I need is the vibrate and with Abigail I have to shock. Even with shock she just looks at me.

NEVER use them for punishment.

I am a yes on ecollars. I use it on my boxer only, for now, and only when we are working on off leash. We live in the boonies and as we take walks there are always rabbits, squirrels, rattlesnakes, etc that my boxer will chase after or go investigate. Any other time she sticks right by us and comes when called but when chasing after a bunny only the collar gets her attention. We use it sparingly and now, after months of having it, we almost never have to use it anymore. Once my pup is a little older we'll use it for off leash as well. You're better off using positive reinforcement for basic obedience. Dogs, and humans, don't learn well in a fearful or stressful type environment. I only use the ecollar or negative reinforcements for behaviors we don't want and always positive for behaviors we do want. Just my 2 cents!

Hey everyone. Thank you so much for all of the replies and info. This definitely helps. And no, I'm not planning on using it for obedience. I was thinking more for off leash type stuff. Of course that's a long ways down the road. I'm just trying to look in to different things and ask people's opinions/uses etc. Can't ever hurt to ask right? . But I appreciate everyone's help. This forum has been a blessing lol.

Its always great to do your due diligence first ! With a really good foundation in obedience, the need for the E collar will be alot smaller. For the recall stuff, I like to use a 10' long lead and do a gazillion recalls.

I'd like to add that the advice of not using it as punishment is misleading. The most common way of using an ecollar to train uses punishment, positive punishment. Any correction, whether ecollar, an interruption word (ex. no), prong, tug on a flat collar, etc are all positive punishment. You're adding (positive) something to diminish a behavior (punishment). I think what everyone here means is to not use it in a painful way and isn't looking at it from an operant conditioning method, but just in case you come across a trainer that uses learning theory to describe the process, it is in fact punishment, just not severe and abusive in most cases. Making your kids do chores for not completing homework, coaches making their teams run laps for losing a game, it's all positive punishment because a stimulus is being added to decrease unwanted behavior.

Everyone above has had some great advice. There are 3 main methods for training with an ecollar. The above mentioned method of correcting an action that has already been learned through correctly taught foundations of positive reinforcement is used to proof certain behaviors to make them more reliable. Ed Frawley does a lot of marketing of his use of this method. Most people layer the ecollar over collar corrections with either a prong or choke so the communication is clearer and the dog knows the correction is coming from the handler.

There's also the method commonly used by hunting dog trainers and marketed by Lou Castle that uses low level stim to teach behaviors. This method uses negative reinforcement. The stim is applied on continuous and when the dog performs the behavior, the stim is shut off. Typically, the beginning training starts with leash and longline work so that the dog can be guided to turn off the behavior.

A third method, the one I'm using with Elli, is best marketed by Robin MacFarlane of That's My Dog. She uses low stim on the ecollar as a light touch for a reminder to get the dog to focus. The stim is taught as a positive thing, much like a "look" or "me" cue. I follow her method with the ecollar on vibrate and tap when Elli's attention starts to shift. This works well for teaching heeling and dog re-activity since it's not a correction, but a cue. Using that method, you can easily incorporate it into foundation obedience work to add clearer communication.

Some things to remember about ecollars is that all dogs train differently. If you have a trainer insisting on one, find out how they use it and why they want to on your dog and make sure they're willing to try different methods to find the best one that fits. Odin is very responsive to prongs. He takes them as communication and isn't the least bit nervous about a leash correction. The vibrate feature on an ecollar will send him running to me afraid of his own shadow, and he can only tolerate the very lowest level of electric stim. Even with that, he doesn't connect well with the use of the collar and tends to want to end sessions early. He performs his best when taught completely with clicker training, so I haven't used an ecollar on him past a few sessions of recall training.

Elli on the other hand, could car less for a clicker and treat. I've marker trained her with the word yes and games of tug. She tends to shut down with too many prong corrections, and yelling will make her run and hide, but working with the ecollar on vibrate and a very low level of stim, she lights up and really gets the training exercises. She has amazing focus and could stare at me as we walked off a cliff, so teaching her that the game of heeling is all about focus and using the vibe feature to remind her makes teaching anything so much easier. She's passed a basic obedience level with a marker training foundation, but I am using the ecollar for advanced stuff and proofing for competition. There's no reason to exclude it from regular training if it's the least adversive form of correction for the dog.

My family's older English Setter, Winston, doesn't care about any collar corrections, prong, flat, or choke. He has a good positive foundation, but will literally do what ever he wants while being corrected. He lives with my parent's now, but I competed with him for a few years when he was younger and it was always a nightmare. He's doing well with the ecollar used as an attention reminder now because he's a bird dog and gets so distracted that a constant focus job keeps him together.

This could be a new thread, I suppose. I'm posing a question, not offering opinion.

In a very old thread, e-collars came up and had many of the cautions we see in this post. One member said they only came to use an e-collar on one of their dogs since recall wasn't reliable in the presence of herds. She had tried everything, was a respected, knowledgeable member, and had also used the collar on herself first.

Another member mentioned having seen a Mal (at trial?) equipped with a shock on its neck and another on its tail. The former member replied it was her opinion that that was a poor handler.

I'm struggling how to accurately pose the question I have in my head....

Taking a poor handler out of the equation, if we find ourselves consistently needing to use e-collars (or for that matter, I suppose, some other training methods) on a dog to perform a task, are we forcing a square peg into a round hole? (I'm not referring to lack of reliability in issues regarding safety. I'm thinking of consistent/continual use of a method that doesn't ever shape the original, task-oriented behavior.)

That's about the best I can do with phrasing without it taking on something not intended.

Sharon,

The situation of more than one collar, I have seen used in Ring sport. It , in this situation was not poor handler, but not a fast enough out of the dog. In these circumstances the drive of the dog is greater than the ability of the handler.

We could have a super long conversation about Ecollars and cover so many situations to use the collar, how, when , where, why etc.

Other than Sport where the dog MUST do the task at that second of recall, the collar has a use as a reminder, off leash. With that said, though, really good training can also negate the use of the collar.

IMO, we can take each persons questions about the collar as what are THEY going to need the collar for?

I hope this made sense, I have not eaten breakfast yet, its sitting waiting for me LOL. My brain thinks better after food.

Raven wrote:
Taking a poor handler out of the equation, if we find ourselves consistently needing to use e-collars (or for that matter, I suppose, some other training methods) on a dog to perform a task, are we forcing a square peg into a round hole? (I'm not referring to lack of reliability in issues regarding safety. I'm thinking of consistent/continual use of a method that doesn't ever shape the original, task-oriented behavior.)

That's about the best I can do with phrasing without it taking on something not intended.

An ecollar is nothing more than a communication tool when used properly with low stim or vibrate/tone. It's not needed to teach a task, but it's a helpful tool to make the rules more clear and train more efficiently, especially when working off leash. That's just what every tool should be whether it's a collar, treat, clicker, prong, ecollar, etc. The goal isn't to constantly use one, but to train the behavior and wean the dog off. There are some instances where it's left on for off leash work/play as an insurance policy, but so are leashes. I think if there's a situation with any method isn't shaping the original behavior, either it is a poor handler or nobody is paying attention to what works best for that dog.

I could train any task with a multitude of tools, but choose the ecollar on dogs when it is efficient and doesn't cause harm to the dog as I described above. I don't need to use ecollars, and I don't rely on them to do the majority of training. Odin doesn't care much for the ecollar, so I don't use it on him anymore and only did a few short sessions to back up a recall off of serious distractions.

There is a quality of life that goes with having a well trained dog and since we (humans) brought them into our society, we have the responsibility to teach them how to behave properly and the more quickly, clearly, and reliably that is done, the better it is for everyone coexisting. A biting dog is dead in human communities. A dog reactive and lunging on the leash doesn't get to enjoy outings and exercise, especially when in a city environment. Certainly positive reinforcement only methods could teach all the dog needs eventually, but sacrificing many years of off leash freedom to properly teach it isn't worth it to me to avoid a few vibrates or very low level stims a couple times during initial training.

The best thing you can do is spend time with the dog. You want it to return to you, spend time to make it happen. You want that connection there, if you don't invest the time with any dog, they're not going to invest it for you. I've watched people at the dog park buy e-collars and expect the dog to come to them in the first day. The remote shock collars are brutal, especially when you see these people just holding down the button that causes the dog to roll in serious pain/screaming.

You're better off using a long lead and prong collar, you'll have a more direct correction and don't have to worry about the dog ignoring the remote sound/vibration or shock. Work the dog like you would a horse, apply slight tension and if he decides to run off and do it to himself then so be it. Never yank or use these tools as a torture device or it will never work. Once the dog is doing what YOU want then introduce the e-collar. Invest the money in a good one and turn it to the lowest setting. Let the dog wear it for a week just so he gets use to it and then start the training off leash.

All your dog wants is for you to do just one thing with him each day. Take a ten minute walk, or climb that old tree out back that he loves to get up in with you there. Rainy day/ cold? Play search and destroy, hide treats all over the house and let him find them.. once he finds some tell him to come and then continue process(or w/e you're using, voice, clicker, ecollar).

Good luck

I have had great success use an e-collar along with positive reinforcement. I use mine for off leash mostly and keep it on a low shock setting. I always try vibrate before using the shock setting and never have it high enough to hurt my pup or scare her ill get a look in my direction or a nice turn around. I did a TON of research before using this tool and tried many other methods before using this for off-leash training. Bella has had this collar for about five months and I very rarely need to use it anymore unless its a deer or squirrel. I used a prong collar and positive enforcement for obedience training never the e-collar.Though I'm sure that many people have had success training that way. I in no way have the kind of experience that many people on here have but i have always found she listens much better and has a much better time when there is a TON of fun mixed into whatever we are doing. Then longer I have her the more responsive she becomes much of our training has gotten better because of all the time we spend together and it gets much easier to "read" her and know how to react.