New User Needs Help!

[triceywoof]

Hi all!

I just joined up on the forum to get some advice about my wonderful DS rescue, Jake. My husband and I found Jake abandoned and starving on a hike one day about 2.5 years ago. He appears to be a purebred DS, but is pretty large (about 90 lbs). You can see him in my avatar.

When we got Jake he was very, very fearful. Over the past two years he has really blossomed--he loves his brother and sister, two adult dogs, one a rottie, the other a rottie mix. Jake is very submissive in the pack order and was neutered as soon as we got him (when he was about one year old).

Anyway--though Jake is wonderful at home: plays with the other dogs, does his tricks, plays fetch, walks beautifully, and is never aggressive or violent with us--when he is in public it is completely different. He is extremely fear aggressive. He barks at and lunges at strangers, children, family friends, and other dogs. I know it is anxiety based...he is still so scared in new situations.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to work with him on this? I know I need to socialize him more...but how do I socialize him and avoid a lawsuit? I am in Southern Alabama/North Florida area and willing to go to training courses, if anyone can recommend a really good trainer. I know that training classes are just as much for training the owner as the dog, and my husband and I really am willing to put in the work with him.

Well, thanks for having me, and thank you in advance for the advice!!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Welcome to the forum! Jake's a handsome boy!

While I don't know of any trainers out in AL/FL, and I'm not an expert, I know when my guy was aggressive it was about 1) finding a great trainer (which you're doing), 2) figuring out his threshold (how close his trigger/how far he from said trigger had to be for him to go off), 3) what his triggers were (which it sounds like you already know too), and 4) figuring out what my responses to his "Kujo" moments were - my emotional state, what I was doing as he went off, what my tone of voice was, how I was holding the leash, etc.

While it's hard to give advice while not seeing the dog in action, you can search the forum as many people have posted about this particular problem and some great advice to help with it. Some training that really helped us was starting back at basics for obedience and slowly introducing distractions. Also, finding his threshold and working a little below it; enlisting the help of friends/family to walk by, not looking at the dog, while you're treating him/holding his attention and you're calm. Once people can walk by without him reacting, move a little closer. A foot, three feet, five feet, the dog will tell you when he hits his threshold. You keep working from there until finally people can walk by and he doesn't react. Then you could possibly move into people walking by and throwing a treat at your dog, working up slowly until he will take a treat from their hand. Talking to him in a happy voice too helped a LOT and making sure I was always emotionally calm - there have been training sessions I've ended because I was getting stressed out and knew my guy would pick up on it.

I personally think of this type of training not as socialization but more as desensitization. You're helping him see not everyone outside his "pack" is bad and meaning harm.

Others will have some better general advice, and of course having a trainer there to help guide you is a huge bonus, because they can alter the training plan as needed based on what they see in Jake. It sounds like you want the best for Jake and you deserve a big round of applause for rescuing him. It sounds like he gets a lot of love in your home and adores you!

[deadrabbits]

I couldn't agree more with kira. A trainer is a big part of it. Pepper had a big problem with other dogs and our trainer said to have her in the sitting position when they passed as it was a position that kept her the most calm without being submissive. It just going to take time and patience. He a pretty boy

[Dutchringgirl]

why do you need to socialize him? What I would do with Sadie is bring her to town, just go get used to the surroundings, she was afraid of everything. we would stay away from people and dogs, if we were being approached, I would go off the path and make her sit quietly and look at me, sometimes I would let her watch so she would see traffic and the noises it made and desensitize her to it. I do not allow anyone to come up to use with another dog. The only dogs are my parents dog and my other friends dogs, [pugs] and I never had to do any 'socializing' I let them work it out and it was great. They love each other.

I also agree with the trainer.

Sadie still barks at new people and I have to keep her on a leash for a while and she is 3 now. Its part of who she is. She is very excitable and I know she will never be calm [ and dignified] like Thalie.

[Stacy_R]

She is very excitable and I know she will never be calm [ and dignified] like Thalie.

I'm not sure any dog can be as dignified as Thalie!!!!

[kyoto49]

I used to have a goreous Rhodesian Ridgeback with exactly the same issues. Wonderful with those she knew, but very fear aggressive with strangers, kids or adults. To be honest, I'm not sure in a dog of this age there is a 'cure' as such, socialisation needs to be done early. Having said that, if you know your dog has these issues they can be prevented and contained.

Out on walks I found a Halti (head collar) was very useful in preventing my RR from launching at strangers, or having a sly nip of their hands as they walked past - yes she did this!!! But it was never cured, I just learnt to anticipate when a problem was likely to occur and act before she did!!!

Training classes might help, but the harsh reality is that if put in certain situations the dog will always revert to type, i.e, be fear aggressive. My ridgeback was very very well trained and excelled at obedience classes, but put her in an enclosed space with strangers and it all went out of the window

Please don't dispair though, with a bit of the right advice potential flashpoint stuations can be predicted and thus avoided

[Dutchringgirl]

They are how they are. these are protection dogs, not go play with everyone dogs. They bark at people approaching my vehicle and house, good !!!

I find places to go walk alone, if I know there may be others around, Its my responsibility to watch my dog and to keep her close when someone approaches. I have yelled at people before and will again.

Walk away from people and stay calm and train for the 'look' comand so he looks at you and not others. Walk in town or a place where you can be around others but a safe distance and can move far away when someone comes, and just keep doing this until he sees its okay, he may always be like this to some degree, Sadie is but im okay with that.

[johninny]

first, thanks so much for rescuing Jake, and particularly having the courage to do so with an un-screened dog that you simply came across in-the-wild, so to speak. several here including myself have done that - and fortunately have wound up with great dogs. Jake must really really love you for that.

i do not wish to add to the specifics of what others have said. however, you mentioned willingness to go to a trainer. in that regard - if you go that route - i suggest you try to find a behavioral specialist [ with education, certification, or experience that is meaningful ] as the task you wish to tackle may be beyond the scope of most trainers in your area that do not have the behavioral background. calling various vets, shelters, dog clubs [ if any ] might lead to someone who is positioned to be of greatest help on this topic that can be rather intractable.

finally, the above posters and others have elsewhere called attention to on-line resources [ lessons from well-known behaviorists ] which you can find perusing various threads here. someone just in the last week or so posted a link about leash-reactivity. would suggest starting with some of these on-line lessons. then if you decide you want to seek a trainer/behavior specialist, you will have a better idea of what to look for -- whether the trainers you meet might actually do any good vis-a-vis their approach, etc.

can anyone make suggestions of links to on-line demonstrations that are relevant here?

[simbathedog1]

We also rescued our DS when he was about a year old. He was at a shelter and his background was unknown. That was a year ago. He had similar fear issues you can read about on my earlier posts, but probably not as severe as your dog.

Anyway, I would also encourage you to find a BEHAVIORIST (not just a TRAINER who stereotypes him as an "aggressive" dog without looking to find the root of the problem). For Simba, we have gotten progress by getting out in the community to desensitize him--obedience classes, tracking classes, agility class--while still keeping him in his safe bubble from the other dogs so he isn't terrified to the point of lashing out. Our behaviorist emphasized that this breed of dog wants to be told what to do---so I guess it's like a kid---obedience and known limits make him feel safe.

We still are working on being in the same room with the vet without growling and trying to attack I'm hoping desensitizing him by visiting the vet clinic will help---it worked with the car rides, the crate, etc.

I hope you can get some improvement. I often feel like our family are only ones who really KNOW this dog and how sweet and loyal and smart and couch-potatoey (and what a scaredy-cat) he is. In a way, that is unfortunate. Outsiders are always going to be seen by him as "outsiders" and they often see that DS face and assume he is a mean dog regardless. Therefore, I think for everyone's sake it is more important than anything to have him as well trained and socialized as possible.

Keep us posted. And remember, it takes baby steps!!

[simbathedog1]

I should have mentioned this...our behaviorist suggested getting him used to a basket type muzzle that we can use in certain situaions for safety. And also a collar called "Comfort Zone" which emits pheromones similar to a mother dog with her pups & it's supposed help to relax a fearful dog. Those two things may be helpful to you.

[triceywoof]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your advice and suggestions. I will definitely peruse the forum and read more of the threads relating to fear aggression and training, and try to move forward with finding a behaviorist. Unfortunately, from my research so far it seems that we have fairly limited resources in my little corner of the country, but I will continue the search.

The advice and encouragement are just great--I will continue to take him on walks at the park/streets with people/etc. to try to desensitize him. I do have him a sit and stay off of the path when we are at the park and others walk by (sometimes it works, sometimes not), but I will continue to do this (and work with him on the "watch" command, too--he could use work on this one, and I bet it will help him with the sit/stay on walks).

Thanks again, from me and Jake. This site is a wonderful resource. It has helped just realizing that Jake will probably never be a "dog park" dog...and I am ok with that. We will see where it all goes.