Dutch Shepherd Forum

Our DS has had a few patches of air loss recently that I thought was ringworm. Took him to the vets on Wed and the vets thought it was a bacterial infection so gave us some antibacterial/steriod cream. There's been no improvement so we went back to the vets today for skin scrapes. The outcome was Dermodectic mange. Initially I was horrified, I mean 'mange'!!!! I'm calmer now and the vet has reassured me that it's common in young dogs whose immunity is still developing, and it's not contagioous to humans (phew )

We've been advised to use Advocate (Imidacloprid (100 g/L), Moxidectin (25g/L) spot on once a month which we've done, he's just had his first dose.

Does anyone have any advice on this, experieinces or information that might be useful?

Thanks

From Dr. Karen Becker's website:

Treatment

Treatment of both sarcoptic and demodectic mange in traditional vet clinics often involves dipping your pet's entire body in a powerful chemical that kills off the mites.

Unfortunately, these dips often cause a number of harmful side effects, including:

Restlessness, CNS signs, tremors
Loss of appetite
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Decrease in body temperature
Other medications may be prescribed as well, taken orally or by injection, via topical application or shampoo. All these treatments involve chemicals that can cause side effects.

My recommendation is to consult an integrative/holistic veterinarian to explore all your options for eliminating the mange mites and relieving your pup's symptoms.

Your dog may or may not need to be dipped in strong chemicals or receive other potentially toxic therapies, depending on the severity of the infestation and the success of other, less caustic treatments, which might include:

Vitamins and other dietary supplements, including omega 3 fats, to help relieve itching, improve the condition of your dog's skin, and support his immune function.
Tea tree shampoo (avoid soaps/shampoos containing oatmeal)
Lyme-sulfur dip (all-natural, but incredibly stinky)
Topical remedies like garlic, Neem and lavender oil, and other soothing and healing herbs.
Internal herbal remedies to fight bacterial infection and strengthen the immune system, including Echinacea (Esberitox is a favorite of mine), Colostrum, Beta Glucans, Olive leaf, Neem, Thymus extract, licorice root and sarsaparilla.
Homeopathics like Sulphur, Silicea and Psorinum

Since your pet's immune system is her first line of defense against any sort of parasitic infestation, one of the most powerful things you can do to keep her healthy and mange-free is to feed a balanced, species-appropriate diet (make sure to eliminate carbs in the diet that will feed opportunistic yeast and staph bacteria) and reduce the number of vaccines given.

My Sidenotes:
1) Before using tea tree and neem oils, I would recommend that you do some further research on your own on amounts to use. Too much *can* cause bad reactions in some dogs. Stay away from shampoos with oatmeal (I realize they say "soothing," but oatmeal is a grain and just like us, dogs absorb things through their skin).
2) I would recommend working on getting your dog's immune system back up and running correctly. I have found that a mix of powdered colostrum and goat's milk yogurt is a good way to do this. I have used this with fosters (adult & puppies) with great success.
3)What are you currently feeding him? Make sure you are feeding a high-quality, grain free, species appropriate food. Orijen and Acana are at the top of my list if you feed kibble/canned.
4) If you are not currently giving fish oil, start ASAP. The Omega-3's will regulate inflammation and support immune function (don't overdo..you will get loose stools).
5) Coconut oil is also very good (but don't overdo...you will get loose stools). It is a great medium chain fatty acid that contains lauric acid and is highly digestible. Coconut oil is a natural anti-viral, antibacterial, anti fungal, and antibiotic.

I hope this helps. I'm sure I am forgetting something, but at least this is a start...

Thanks Stacey, I appreciate the time and advice.

My research leads me to believe that stress can be a factor in the flareup of dermodex? so far Otto has been:

abandoned at 8 weeks,
fostered in a multi dog household for 2 months
moved to a Spanish rescue compound (not great places) where he was peened with a group of older dogs
back to the foster home in preperation for transport
drive from Southern Spain to the UK
new home 7 weeks ago

Quite a few stressful triggers there by the time he was 5 months old

Diet wise, he's always been on James Wellbeloved ( http://www.wellbeloved.com/products/dog ... ice-junior ) , a quality complete (do Americans call this kibble?), supplemented with canned fish in oil (sardines or pilchards) twice a week.

I wish I was brave enough to try the complimentary and natural methods, sadly I'm not! So I've taken the advice of the vet and used the Advocate she recommended. This will also worm and flea Otto. The vet was however not keen to do the really toxic dip or shampoo so I see that as a good thing.

I'm interested in the coconut oil, especially given it's muliple positive properties. I've never seen this for sale in the UK? I'll also investigate the powdered colustrum.

Thanks again

poor guy. horrible way for him to begin life. thank you for and congratulations on rescuing him and giving him a good home.

just a note that may or may not be relevant: i also give all my DS a can of sardines each day, mainly for the broad range of omega 3's they get that way. but the packing materials except for the most expensive brands packed in high-quality olive oil are not good for dogs. water = salty brine; oil = soy oil. fish should be thoroughly drained of either of these. dogs are not equipped to digest soy; and soy oil would upset the balance of oils that they need for good fur, joint,(etc)...health, counteracting the great benefit of the omega3's in the fish.

hope he settles in and is not too traumatized. he sure will love you forever for saving him.

Poor guy! I would say he has had some stress in his young life!!!

As far as food goes, I would look for something that has meat as the #1 ingredient. Rice is a grain and you really want to limit the amount of grains in a dog's diet (ideally, the goal is zero grains, but that isn't always possible). You want to look for something that is high protein - low starch. Ideally with zero corn, rice & other grains. Here is the link to Orijen's website: http://www.orijen.ca/ Look around and look at the formulas and ingredients. I do believe they have international retailers, but I am not sure exactly where. Click on the "where to buy" tab.

Coconut oil is solid at room temperature and usually with other cooking oils in the stores over here. My dogs just lick it off the spoon. Just take it slow, though. Like I said, too much can cause loose stools. If that happens, just back off the dose. I would start with 1 tsp a day and work up to no more than 1 Tbsp.

Also, check the sodium content of the canned fish you are feeding him. You really don't want more than 100 mg of sodium per day.

Demodex is the easy mange. Just be glad you don't have a case of sarcoptic mange. Ivermectin shots seem to have the fastest medical response, in my experience. You might want to ask your vet about that if your current treatment isn't working. In a young pup with just a few spots, boosting the immune system with a good environment and proper diet and supplements will probably take care of it in time though.

I also would bathe weekly with a benzoyl peroxide shampoo to open the skin up and make it more responsive to the topical treatment. I'm not sure how it will work with advocate though, I've never used that to treat mange. Some people have reported just the shampoo alone helps. I used to bathe Odin in it to get rid of his initial itchies when we first adopted him and had good results. If you have to go the dip route, bathing with benzoyl peroxide immediately before the dip will make it more effective and reduce the number of times you have to dip as well. Shampooing before the dip was standard practice in the nicer vet clinics I've worked in.

Years ago my young GSD had a bout of Demodex. Treated it but I don't remember with what, it resolved and never surfaced again. I am pretty certain it was treated with a topical. I know I did not do a full body dip. So remain calm, this too shall pass.

kyoto49 wrote:I'm interested in the coconut oil, especially given it's muliple positive properties. I've never seen this for sale in the UK?

If you shop online, look at Tropical Traditions for coconut oil. They sell a variety (organic, virgin, expressed, etc.) in a number of price-points. Obviously, the less processing, the better. (They just had a 50% off sale on gallon buckets of different oils--virgin, etc..)

I don't see the point in purchasing pure coconut oil packaged "for dogs" as it's pricey, but also since I use it on my hair and skin as well as for cooking. My beast gets a tablespoon a day (or more).

In the US, anyway, it's in health food stores, specialty/ethnic shops, and grocery stores, but sometimes you can't be sure exactly what you're getting (extent of processing). And you pay a small fortune in stores for what you know is the good stuff.

Raven wrote:
I don't see the point in purchasing pure coconut oil packaged "for dogs" as it's pricey, but also since I use it on my hair and skin as well as for cooking. My beast gets a tablespoon a day (or more).

Agreed. I buy "people" coconut oil...expeller pressed organic virgin unrefined.

My dogs will stand on their heads for it....they love it.

Thanks for the website link!! I am going to check it out, maybe I can save some $$$$!

Thor's learned that Mom's not a lollipop when I use it (or olive oil) on my hair and skin.

When he sees me pull the jar out, he runs to get the "vessel" I put it on (and gets disappointed since it's not always for him). His pupils nearly dilate when he sees me prepping a mixture of coconut (or olive) oil, ground flax seed and warm water. It's disgusting...that slimy, big glop swelling up in the bowl...but he thinks I'm the world's best mom as it gets fed to him like a baby with a spoon.

Stacy, I think you'll find the website interesting and informative, even if you don't purchase from them. Lots of stuff to read about their process for everything they offer. If interested, sign up for email notifications for sales.

Raven wrote:Thor's learned that Mom's not a lollipop when I use it (or olive oil) on my hair and skin.

LOL!!!

It's funny. This last weekend we bought some coconut oil for our use but also for pepper and now I am catching up on the forum and I read this thread. We picked it up at sprouts for 18 usd and it's the unrefined oil. Pepper goes bonkers when we give her a baby spoon full.