Dutch Shepherd Forum

Karin had started a post and we started talking about Jealousy in dogs. Very interesting in my mind.

Many articles say dogs dog feel jealous, but what is that when one gets lovin' and the other one comes over and squeezes in between? one gets a treat and the other one starts giving you the boo boo eyes because they want one too?

Many articles say for the emotion of jealousy to be present, then envy also must be present. How do they know that what the other dog is getting is better? That is from envy and the articles state that dogs dont have the cognitive processes to produce Jealousy and envy. [ We know they have the cognitive process to look cute enough !]

One study showed that when two dogs were next to each other and they were to give paws for treats, one got a treat and the other didnt, the one who didnt get a treat stopped giving paw, not because he was jealous and said forget it, no treat no paw, but because the stress of not getting a treat while his pal got one, was too great. The next two dogs gave paw, one for bread and one for sausage, both gave paws, they didnt care that the treats were different [ No way Sadie would settle for bread if her nose smelled Thalie getting sausage ! So right there I know they weren’t using DS for this test LOL]

So, here is my take on this, Dogs are Narcissist. Whats yours is mine, whats over there is mine, what you have is mine, what I saw yesterday is mine.
I know that still leaves holes in a lot of why they do what they do , but Im only on my first cup of coffee and Sadie is giving me the “ I want breakfast or ill eat you “ look, so thats all I got for now.

I do believe that dogs experience some level of jealousy. Is it exactly like what we feel? I don't know. I do think that the behavior can be managed with proper training, though most of us don't really address it (I know I don't as much as I should). I also think it varies from dog to dog. I think you just have to really know your dog and be watchful that it doesn't escalate and manifest into something bigger like resource guarding/possessiveness.

The writer of this article from Psychology Today basically says he believes that dogs do experience jealousy and envy, just not to the extent that humans do. He cites the same experiment as you did.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/can ... y-and-envy

Whatever we believe (today or tomorrow) about dogs, we're nonetheless still trying to figure out ourselves (the human brain, mind, nature vs. nurture, the dynamics of perception, etc.).

If dogs aren't capable of feeling jealously, as defined by humans, they are at least capable of not wanting to be excluded (different than being able to feel excluded, and maybe sometimes mistaken as a dominating behavior), IMO.

First dog: Dude--why'd you jump between your humans like that? Uncool.
Second dog: The planet wasn't revolving around me. Stupid.

Lisa, interesting post. Having 2 dogs now, I can totally relate to this. Mr Prancer is the one pushing in front of Ms Sugar; he always has to be there and cannot miss out on anything!

Sugar is different. If I do anything with Prancer that she thinks may result in food, or playing, etc, she will come over but does not push him out of the way or behave at all like he would if it was the other way round. I figure she just sees an opportunity and wants the food/toy/etc. But she will politely wait until it is offered.

However if I do something with Sugar, giver her any attention at all, he tries to push his way in front and make sure he is in there, and is in there FIRST.

I see it as greediness more then jealousy. That, and a lack of respect.

Sugar is very respectful and while she wants the treat or whatever it is, (could be an invite onto the couch, to play with a toy, etc) she is respectful and waits for it to be offered. Him, not so much lol. If I invite her up on the couch, he will come barreling over and jump up in front of her! He is such a pest, lol.

Of course, the competition plays into it, as if it was only one dog, it certainly would be alot less intense...but Prancer is still the same with or without the competition...just has to be in there like a dirty shirt...he gets super excited about stuff, its just less intense when it is just him. Where as Sugar is patient and polite. She is such a good girl

Good point Sue, Respect. Competition,

Sadie disrespects Thalie frequently, althought, Thalie allows is. It seems to boil down to survival.

Ha ha, sounds like we have a lot in common

back to the original question, i think there is not a single emotion that most humans experience that dogs [ and mammals in general ] do not experience in a rather full form that we would [ and should ] recognize as totally familiar. our genetic similarity to and shared evolutionary history with dogs [ and mammals in general ] is just too great to think otherwise on a scientific basis - if simple observation of and empathetic understanding of the animals around us is not enough or not possible for some people. Temple Grandin's ability to get inside the mind of a cow is a case in point of the latter observation and empathetic understanding w/r/t a species most people would find rather obtuse compared to a dog, but it is possible because it is still so similar.

consider for those that think that dogs are simply friendly versions of wolves: if the genetic difference between wolves and dogs is defined as 1 degree of difference [98 1/2% shared DNA], then humans have only 3 - 4 degrees of difference from dogs [ about 95% shared ]. there is remarkably little difference in the base mechanisms that rule all mammals.

concerning the experiment cited above [ respectively giving/withholding treats for 2 dogs performing simultaneously], i have always ascribed the results of that experiment to dogs' sense of FAIRNESS, JUSTICE - whatever word one chooses to use for that - not jealousy or envy. if one knows what the going rate for performing a certain task is - like waiting tables in a diner, doing assembly-line work, clipping 1 dog's nails, or hourly paralegal work with 2 years experience - then most people will refuse a lesser offer [ unless there are extenuating circumstances ] and will forego $s they need and want simply because they are offended by the lack of fairness. in my observation, dogs have the identical sense of fairness or justice that we do. Edit: a lot of the behavioral advice that i have chimed in with here as [ generally ] additive to more professional advice given here is based on dogs' sense of fairness. one has to get that part right to really understand your dog and have an optimal relationship whatever one is trying to achieve.