Dutch Shepherd Forum

A recent issue has surfaced in our home. This post will end up kind of long, but i want to describe the events, and hopefully get some good opinions on what to do, not to do, what we've done wrong?


We have 2 dutch females just under 2 years old right now. they get along great, have since the day they met each other.
Zia we have had since a puppy, Molly we got from a shelter in July.

In the past few days directly after eating Zia will go straight at Molly to either steal whatever food is left, or she starts posturing and her hair stands up on her back and she starts displaying dominance. Untill last night, things never escalated. Molly would just submit, and things would calm down after a few minutes.

Last night they got into a fight. we separated them right away, then let them both outside to cool off. Mistake. Back to fighting they went, we were able to break them up but I suffered a few puncture wounds on my fingers not bad though. Dogs had no wounds.

Put Molly in the garage to relax, she was extremely wound up. let zia inside to cool also. They seemed calm, so we put Molly inside in the crate and left zia out in the house. Molly calmed down, both dogs layed down after about 30 mins...all seemed ok.

Let molly out of the crate, right away back to fighting. Zia being the instigator every time. Molly went back to crate.

once they calmed down, we put the leashes on and went outside and I walked one way with molly and my gf took Zia out after i did. We let them re introduce themselves slowly to each other and after about 15 mins they were ok.
back inside we go. leashes still on..dogs are calmed down and civil towards each other again. no fights, no seperation.

waited a while, tool leashes off everything back to normal after about a 2 hour ordeal.

this morning at feeding time, i left the E collars on both dogs, and similar situation started to unfold. Molly finished eating first, Zia went directly for Molly with her hair standing and posturing.
I gave a vibration correction to zia, seemed to distract her from molly. after a few minutes everyone calmed down and relaxed.

we went to a very large dog park today and they were fine with each other and all other dogs. There weren't many people there due to the Packer game!(we live in Wisconsin)

now there sleepy and tired.
But dinner time is soon, and worried how it will go. E collars will remain on, to give a quick vibration correction if needed.

will update later on tonight.

This seems to be an issue and we cant have this behavior at feeding time.

What should we do?


thanks!

(sorry for the long winded post)

Feed them in their own crates, doors shut. As soon as they are done, pick up the bowls, leave them in their crates to chill. They have to chill after eating and are not allowed to see what the other one left.

I'd do feeding in crates or in seperation rooms. After eating both must chill. No seeing each other's bowls/eating. Since Zia is starting it, she's essentially trying to bully Molly, and I would simply say "not gonna happen" so remove the temptation totally.

Just fed them like normal. Molly seemed to eat faster then normal and came over by me right away tail wagging.
Zia finished eating, started to get a little fluffed up, so I buzzed the collar. She calmed down and all was good. No issues tonight.

The only thing that I'm worried about with feeding in separate rooms is what happens when the door opens again. No matter how calm they may be separated, zia might have a go at molly. Like what happend yesterday when I let molly out of the crate.
Zia is definitely the aggressor.

Moving to Behavior.

Things have gone good the last few days. Fed separate kept them apart For an hr or so. Reintroduce went ok. No fights.

Except tonight. Zia attacked molly. Ripped her ear open. Zia would not let go... It was very scary, the screams molly was making will haunt me...

At the emergency vet now getting molly stitched up.

I don't know what to do... Going to be looking for a veterinary behaviorist.

Any advice or people we can use would be great.
Live near Milwaukee WI.

Could really use some advice here......

Dogs are still fighting with. Now it's anytime not just after food.


Meeting with a dog behaviorist on Tuesday, just hope it's worth the money. She's very expensive.

Keep them separated for right now. No interaction. If they come out ecollars/leashes on so you can separate/correct if needed. What is their body language towards each other if they see each other? Both showing aggression immediately or is one still starting it. If it's one starting it I would start correcting her and limiting her exposure to the other. If they're both going at it at the same time, keep them both separated until you see the behaviorist. Let us know what she says.

Do you happen to know the lines of your two dogs?

I can't offer advice on this, but wanted to say how terrible I feel for you. I hope the behaviorist can help. (Did you vet her out?)

Let us know her take on the situation and how things are going.

Man, something changed the dynamics quickly!

the Vet that stitched molly up recommended her as she deals with a lot of dog to dog aggression issues.

she did a lot of talking, it was a lot of information to process in 2 hours. was kinda disappointed that we didn't actually DO anything with the dogs. just had to keep them in separate rooms.

but based on the little bit of interaction she saw, she pretty much said was that Molly is now scared and very reactive of seeing Zia, and of Zia looking at Molly.
Once Zia and Molly look at each other Molly starts barking like crazy and pulling towards Zia.

Zia just wants to play and be normal, but Molly has been traumatized by the incident and will take time to get her comfortable again.
she no longer feels safe around Zia inside the house. so we will have to do some excersizes to get her used to being around her again.

Part of it also, is the fact that they are both females, and both right at 2 years old. so they are coming into their social maturity levels. at least Molly might be, since now she has been reacting strongly to things Zia does to her that before didn't use to bother her as much.

she also recommended possibly trying anxiety medication for Molly. to keep her calm so that she can learn to be around Zia comfortably again. When she is reacting and barking she cant process any commands or think logically. Not sure if I want to put her on medication....

its going to be a long and difficult road ahead. Just hope they can work this out. :/

Wow. Not what I expected to hear. I get Molly now being fearful of Zia, but if Zia kind of kicked off this change in dynamics, how is it that she 'just' wants to play and be normal? She was posturing with Molly.

It began over food (at least as far as you were able to see). She didn't address that?

Did she give you program to follow?

Groc352 wrote: Zia just wants to play and be normal, but Molly has been traumatized by the incident and will take time to get her comfortable again.

Be careful when personalizing things like this. Dogs are not people and we have to make sure that we don't apply human emotions, labels, etc to things like this.

Also, I have the same question as Sharon...Zia is the aggressor, no? I'm not sure that "she just wants to play." You need to pay careful attention to her body language: ears, tail position, body stiffness, etc. Sometimes we mistake things for play when they are really something else (fear, agonistic, submissive..)

They need to learn how to exist around each other in relaxed states. Base (or as others call it, "place") is your best friend right now.


I know excellent trainers in NC who work with cases like this all the time. I don't know where you are located, but if you are willing to do a board and train with them, they can really help you out.
https://www.facebook.com/Swiftdogz

I have a friend who uses them - she has a Pitt/Plotthound mix with all sorts of issues and would displace on other dogs. Maple can now lay by Morgan with no issues.

i know it cant do much saying it now, but maybe zia should have been crated, moved to the garage ect at the start of all of this instead of molly? if you paid no heed to the posturing and raised hackles zia could have taken that as your support and gotten into the pack mentality of 'everyone vs molly'. the same can be said of crating and separating the victim rather than the perpetrator. if any dogs have issues around food aggression i make sure to never let them see or be in the presence of the other dog while eating, koda and demon have separate eating and sleeping quarters because koda is food aggressive and possessive of toys ect, and if she ever acts the maggot around demon when they're together i make it very very clear that it will put her on my bad side to mistreat him.
dogs do have complex emotions but they process things differently than us so id be careful not to humanise them and/or subtly take sides. im not sure why your vet dosnt seem to have addressed the main food trigger that started all of this, all i can really suggest is separate them completely for a time, maybe a few days or a week or more and then try introducing them as if they've never met, in a completely neutral setting away from the house and work up from there. though im certainly no professional
its definitely a delicate situation youre in

That's what the behaviorist had said. that zia looked happy/playful and molly was reactive.

the food was the initial cause. and was talked about thoroughly. they will never ever eat in the same room together.

Zia can not be crated, or put in another room/garage without crying whining barking clawing at the doors. then it just amps up molly.
that's the only reason molly has been crated/kept in separate rooms. she stays calm. seems to like it she relaxes quicker.

she is supposed to be working on a program and emailing it to me this week. in the mean time, baby steps.
Molly seems most reactive inside the house. which is where the fights happened.
so when we start outside with both dogs leashed it goes a lot smoother. molly doesn't seem to bark or pull towards zia as much.

its hard to tell who the true aggressor is. Zia postures and hackles go up and displays dominance. but doesn't initiate the fighting. molly does. but is that a defensive act?

were going to start trying placement cues. when one dog seems to start getting anything but calm in the presence of the other dog, they go to there "place" a spot, bed, crate. whatever. to sit for a minute and try to recollect the situations.

lotta work ahead.

Inside is their territory so it would be more.... "drama" if that makes sense. I always call the one that puts out the threat the aggressor. If it's a challenge, snarl, long stare with hackles up, a snap, a bite.... doesn't have to always be a "who hit first" situation.

I would say while working on "place" make sure you practice one on one. Asking one to go to "place" in the presence of a trigger is a very hard thing to do. Work up to that slowly, which I'm sure you're already planning. Also when implementing this, make sure you can control the other dog too.

Possibly your first hurdle will be getting Molly back to where she was prior to Zia being a twit. I have a friend with 2 dominant males and she's always breaking up fights, one even went full on rebel and she really had to crack down on him hard. It *seems* (and I use this with no judgement as we're not there with you) like Zia is harder than Molly, therefore you may need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with her or get very strict with her. It does work, but it's also not always the right way for certain dogs. For Molly for example I have a feeling it would backfire terribly. Again, just outsider views.

It's a lot of work but it does pay off in the end. Keep us updated on your progress!

Right now molly is super reactive to seeing zia. Even outside. The second see sees zia does Barking and lunging toward her. Even from 50 ft away.
So how do you deal with that type of reactivity?
The behaviorist recommend using a head halter, but want to get her used to wearing it first before seeing zia.
When she reacts, pull up on her nose make her sit, reward not reacting to zia.

The behaviorist sent me a 9 page summary and treatment plan. If anyone is interested in reading it I can serve it to you. There is a ton of good info that could help others in a similar situation.

And yea, zia is much harder then molly. She knows the commands, but ignores them sometimes or is late to do them. She needs more obedience work.

Did the behavorist say anything about how to handle Zia?

There's a few different ways of neutralizing Zia to Molly, all of which depends on what works best for Molly. The head halter could work (you're on track getting her used to it without Zia), also just a command to Look when she sees Zia.... These could give you the default behavior of if Zia is in the room Molly is keyed to you and won't even look at her. Could also neautralization Zia to Molly. I personally found the best is a game of "where is" which I've talked about on different topics - you can adjust the game as you need but I love it because it does seem to work (as long as you're good on your timing). There's also physically turning Molly so her back faces Zia and she can only look if she's calm. This has mixed results but I use it as a sort of reset if my guy goes far over threshold and he won't calm. My personal opinion would be to neautralize Zia to Molly since they have to live together.

Update-

On Thursday afternoon I was trying to have molly positively associate being around zia. every time she would not bark or react at her I would give her small pieces of cooked chicken. (this is the method the behaviorist suggested)

So I had zia on a harness tied up outside, and brought molly out on a long leash.
things were going fine until the dogs got nose to nose by accident. they sniffed, molly barked. I called her back and we started to move away from Zia.

Zia somehow slipped the harness she was in and attacked Molly again. This time I thought she was going to kill her. she had her by the throat and was shaking her on the ground.
I was by myself and it was a very horrible thing to try and break them up. I was finally able to get zia to let go of molly and held her down..

Molly ended up with about a foot long cut from her chin down her neck.

We need to re home one of the dogs now. its clear that this just isn't going to work.

its really hard. we don't know what to do or what dog to "pick"

weve had Zia since a puppy. but I don't know if I trust her anymore after this. shes never gone after any other dogs. but what if this is a start? Zia is a very strong headed dog. not the best obedience but with more time and work she will get there

Molly is a wonderful dog. very sweet and loving. very obedient, very easy to take anywhere and be able to put into new situations and not worry that she will react negatively..

just wish there was an easy way through this.

Groc352 wrote:Update-

On Thursday afternoon I was trying to have molly positively associate being around zia. every time she would not bark or react at her I would give her small pieces of cooked chicken. (this is the method the behaviorist suggested)

I'm confused by this... If food is seemingly a trigger of some sort, why would the behaviorist have you add food into the mix in the beginning? Adding anything of high value to an already tense situation creates all that much more tension and stress...

Groc352 wrote:So I had zia on a harness tied up outside, and brought molly out on a long leash.

Did the behaviorist suggest this, too? Tying a reactive dog creates more stress. Any work that you do with Molly and Zia should be with 2 handlers. No one should be tied. And at this stage in the game, they shouldn't be closer together than they can handle. This can only be accomplished with 2 handlers and special attention being paid to body language.

No offense, but I would find a new behaviorist.... From what you shared, these dogs were set up for failure (environmental stress + high value food + being tied = no-win).

That being said, if you are at your wit's end and truly feel like rehoming is your best option, post detailed bios with pictures (maybe in the Buy, Sell, Trade section) so that they can be networked. I work with a trainer who has clients looking for specific breeds all the time (they also work closely with the police department in their city). But I would need detailed bios and pictures before I can send anything to them.

yes the high value treats are what she recommended. I didn't intend on the two dogs getting close enough to each other. I shouldn't have tried doing anything on my own..but I wanted to try to make things work out.

I figured that since zia dosnt really like being tied up. she wouldn't be a problem. generally she is very slow and sheepish when tied outside. she cries and whines. not barking or lunging.

so I figured I could just show zia to molly so she starts association zia with good things. that's what we were instructed to do..

I don't think molly can get over the attack, she could have been killed. it was very serious.
which Is why we feel rehoming one dog is best. even though we don't want to lose either of them, I don't know how to move forward from here.

I know im being vauge and details are sketchy so im sorry. its been a very hard past few days.

Ive contacted NADSR but they were unable to help. Zia is probally a mix they said and they cant accommodate any resources for mix breeds...ive contacted some people and made a post on a rescue site..i don't want her in a shelter, just a new home with no other dogs.



its just hard to understand how a dog can go from 0-kill in 5 seconds. how can they go from being together all day every day doing everything together never having any problems (except the recent food issues) to wanting to kill!?

wish they could just talk sometimes...