DS Herders out there???

[falcara]

Hi all,

I am keenly interested to know if any DS owners out there train and trial on a regular basis. What is the DS talent like? Is the breed loose eyed or do some dogs show eye?
I am such a herding newbie with my Belgian Laekenois, but we are true herding addicts. We're off to herding boot camp soon.

Hope to hear from fellow herders!

Diane Koontz Bresee
Walland, TN

[vneerland]

I don't think there are many herding herders in this community
But they are not supposed to give eye. The DS (if it does not turn the sheep into lamb chops and shoarma first) herds like the German and Belgian shepherds. In Holland they call it 'line herding' moving the flock from A to B and keeping the general direction, but no natural bunching and penning like a BC. Unlike the BC's though, they also protect. Just a different set of talents.

[falcara]

Thank you Judith! Your description of the DS herding style makes sense to me. I like that they guard as well as line drive. My Laeken is an odd Belgian duck. He has demonstrated some eye (it surprised everybody) as he brought the sheep back to balance to me in fetching & balance exercises. He found the spot to put pressure to hold them to me by looking eyeball to eyeball with a particularly uncooperative sheep.

Thank you again. I LOVE to hear about working DS!

Diane Bresee
Walland, TN

[GSDNanny]

The DS is an upright, loose-eyed breed as is the GSD. They are a tending breed primarily. They encompass the outer borders of the pasture area with the flock inside grazing.
They do well on an AKC "C" course.

Now with that said, I have only tried a couple of times to herd with my DS's as well as my GSDs. What I find is that at my age, I am no match even with the best of obedience taught. My attempts have been devastating to my stock both ducks and sheep. I am just not quick enough to keep up with the dogs. Since starting in a round pen with stock close up is how most trainers begin, I would recommend starting with a puppy in that type enclosure, quickly graduating to the larger arena, once and only once the puppy has the commands down. Because without firm obedience and when the dog is off lead, there is absolutely no way, no way you will be able to keep up with a DS on course. I say starting with a puppy in the round pen because I have found that my adult DSs and my GSDs are so overly equipped in agility and strength, compounded by high prey drive that the drive intensifies in a close area with the stock. Hence, resultant chaos and destruction.

I do train my Australian Cattledogs and Australian Shepherd, plus a friends BC/AussieX dogs in herding. She has 300 head of cattle. I usually start the pups on ducks and go straight to cattle although I do have a few sheep. One good herding dog can do what four manned ATVs can accomplish on a cattle farm and it can be done without spooking the cattle.

A close friend is a herding judge so when he is in town, he helps a lot. I have a lot to learn and I dont compete, just train for functional farm dogs.

[Marjolein]

many times you will notice DS like to walk on paths/trails, this is natural behaviour, they had to walk up and down paths to make an invisible line, not to be crossed by any shoarma..uhhh....sheep

[Kristie E]

Does herding small children count?

[vneerland]

Does herding small children count?

Yes, but only when they travel in flocks.

@ Denise. I have the utmost respect for any dog that wants to mess with cattle at this side of the pond. I don't think that Europeans understand that our beef here, is a heck of a lot more assertive than most of theirs. A hand raised gentle cow is not quite the same as the born free beasts that I have encountered here. I had no idea how agile, fast and ferocious a bovine can be, until I had been at a sale barn a time or two. Holy cow! Any dog that successfully messes with that, is quite the hero in my book.

[Marjolein]

I happen to live right next door to a farmer who has this type of cows:



They will be somewhere in the middle of what Judith subscribed and your average Dutch cow


Moooo (the look says it all...)

Those big brown beasts can be quite scary. We often go and track in the area where they roam, I always hope they will not come over and visit, they are very impressive and known to be aggressive if provoked. Anyway, Judith suggested any dog messing with the more assertive type of cow is a hero. I'll have to disagree... I own a dog that thinks she can play and chase those cows, but in reality she is just totally stupid and if she had not been on a long line like they are during tracking she would surely have peen stuck on those big horns of one of my neighbours cows

On herding, in Holland there are some people still herding, one "for real" some more as a sport. But is is pretty rare. Some pics from the Dutch forum:

Co vd Molengors owner Chatal Oudt







Video of Mijke vd 's-Gravenschans, same owner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl7URl-gigE

Bertina van Stavast, owner Lia Helmers

[GSDNanny]

Marj, as in the last photo you can see where the dog is doing what I mentioned about working the perimeter while the sheep graze. Nice nice photos! I like how the DS is really working it; the sheep are calm which is what you want. I have been to many stockdog trials to include, ducks, sheep and cattle. Most stockdog cattle trials use really aggressive dogs because what I find is that it is mostly macho cattlemen sporting the toughest dogs so these guys really get into all that. I have seen too many dogs trampled and kicked up high into the air. I find that it only causes serious accidents and even takes longer to perform the tasks. I am totally about function, not show. I really enjoy watching my herding judge friend's BCs go out on the field and move cattle quietly and smoothly in a fraction of the time. Now that is a pleasure to watch. My ACDs are drivers, love going to the head, bunchers, less fetching tendency but either way you just adjust your training and the dogs make farm work so much easier.

The primary foundation for herding is a solid firm 'lie down'. That stops the dog no matter where he is and he knows to await the next command. The commands are basic and some people use whistles. I dont compete so the whistles are just something for me to keep up with when I am out doing farm chores. I always have my voice!

Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed them. Some day, I will start off fresh with a DS pup in herding training.

[GSDNanny]

I totally agree, Judith, HOLY COW!!! What the heck is that kind of cow, all hairy and those horns, yipes!? Kinda scarey looking. Oh and cows can kick sideways too (found that out the hardway - ouch! )

I did order more ducks for herding training with the young dogs. I like my sheep as pets so I try not to have to use them for herding and ducks are more expendable (yum-yum) just in case.

I dont know anyone in the US who herds with their DS. Anyone? Who knows, maybe I will be the first.

[Dutchringgirl]

Does herding small children count?

HAHAHA, i was going to say the same thing, Thalie mostly heards Sadie and Sootie ( the basset)

[Marjolein]

The Two DS that are still "on the job" in Holalnd do what they were bred for, which is running up and down the lines to keep the sheep within certain boudaries. Mostly they do not get any commands while moveing along the heard, it's a lot of insight, they make their own descicions. This is what is often referred to as "stubbornness" in other area's of work (healing etc.)

[vneerland]

I totally agree, Judith, HOLY COW!!! What the heck is that kind of cow, all hairy and those horns, yipes!? Kinda scarey looking. Oh and cows can kick sideways too (found that out the hardway - ouch! )

Scottisch Highlanders. Not quite as wild as they are woolly though. I am afraid that our local off the range brahma's, herfords, and longhorns are a lot more ornary.

I did order more ducks for herding training with the young dogs. I like my sheep as pets so I try not to have to use them for herding and ducks are more expendable (yum-yum) just in case.

Dang. I like for my ducks to float, and lay, not much else. Sheep however..... I don't do sheep, but since I lost my ducks to the local wildlife, I doubt any sheep would stick around a long time, so no herding for my brindles. Just hurting.

I dont know anyone in the US who herds with their DS. Anyone? Who knows, maybe I will be the first.

That might depend on your definition of herding. I know of one of my (sold) pups that thinks she does anyway. Just don't tell her that the clydesdales she messes with, would have gone to the barn anyway, since their food is being put out that time of day. Some other DS owners use their brindles around the farm, and maybe some have actually gotten herding titles?

[turnnburn52984]

Just posted it in the other thread, but I'm doing a herding instinct test with Koenig in May. (YIKES!!!)

[Marjolein]

Just posted it in the other thread, but I'm doing a herding instinct test with Koenig in May. (YIKES!!!)

poor sheep...

[turnnburn52984]

But yes, you're right Marjolein! I'm a tad concerned, but the trainer is very experienced with err.... drivey... dogs, so I hear.

[Kristie E]

]

I totally agree, Judith, HOLY COW!!! What the heck is that kind of cow, all hairy and those horns, yipes!? Kinda scarey looking. Oh and cows can kick sideways too (found that out the hardway - ouch! )

Ahh yes, sideways, some horses do it also. I believe they do call it "cow kicking." I had one knock me off my horse once on a trail ride, never saw it coming.

I did order more ducks for herding training with the young dogs. I like my sheep as pets so I try not to have to use them for herding and ducks are more expendable (yum-yum) just in case.

lol, ducks!!! I never thought of using ducks for herding. I bet it would be really funny to watch.

[Marjolein]

Ivil would love to herd ducks! Every 15 minutes she will need a break though, to get her full stomach back in place, gives me time to replace all the eaten ducks

[GSDNanny]

But yes, you're right Marjolein! I'm a tad concerned, but the trainer is very experienced with err.... drivey... dogs, so I hear.

Experienced, err.....for sure you will find out soon enough!!! Got a video camera?
:dswink"

[GSDNanny]

lol, ducks!!! I never thought of using ducks for herding. I bet it would be really funny to watch. [/quote]

Yep, I just hatched out two more dozen ducklings for herding. That gives me enough now to switch out for training several puppies at the same time. I find that Khaki Campbells for myself are the best for herding. I have tried the Pekins (the best meat duck you will ever eat!!) but they are heavy-breasted so that makes them slow and they cant fly. The KCs are a mix between Indian Runner and Mallard and are more upright and mid-fast. KCs can fly but mine dont knoe they can yet. Instead they kind of skim the ground which is an advantage for them if a real prey driven beast tries to take them out. They bunch well although ducks dont gather to the stockman like sheep do. You can even get herding titles on ducks. And you are right, it is a hoot to watch a young dog or pup on the ducks!!! Ducks are a cheap way to start a puppy in herding. If nothing else, it is most entertaining!