Dutch Shepherd Forum

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:07 am**

Would like to mention a couple "tests" that he was recently under. He and I have been working hard on getting him to pass such tests...with still a long way to go.

1) About a month ago, had the tax man over. I had Thor on-lead. Long story short, his focus was on me and responded swiftly to each command--whether verbal or non-verbal. I was really excited with his reaction whenever I stopped: he dropped like a ton of bricks.

The first time I brought him to the kitchen threshold, where the tax man was, when I stopped, he dropped...but stared at tax man and growled. I gave a quiet verbal, he stopped. I didn't "request" that he place his focus back on me, wanting to see if he would. It took a minute, but he did.

When we walked in the kitchen, he did glance at the man for a second, but resumed focus. When I stopped, he dropped; his attention was on me as I spoke with the man.

2) As yesterday had near-spring weatherfor us, the neighborhood had increased activity when the husband and Thor left to run errands. Upon their return, Thor gave a bark when teens walked by and then when a neighbor came out to find out how Thor has been doing.

Though the husband doesn't work with our beast(s) as I do, he does pick up on things by watching me and tries to work on some of the things with them. So, when the neighbor came out asking about Thor, the husband put Thor through some paces, all verbal. There were distractions...but Thor responded swiftly. His focus, however, was not on his father...yet...his father doesn't demand it or work with him on it. Still, I prefer that Thor focus on either one of us.

Neighbor said, "Boy, he's really come a long way since the last time I saw him."

Now...no one was walking a dog by at the time. That test, I'm sure, is not too far in the future.

Okay...that's it for now. He's met other challenges but those were the recent Top Two.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:37 pm**

One step at a time, will ultimately lead to your destination. I am happy for you!

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:39 pm**

very good!

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:10 pm**

way to go!

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:26 pm**

Great progress!

Posted: **Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:35 pm**

Thanks for the updates!! I know I got a "Preview"

I really am always so grateful to hear of the successes of the dogs in their new homes - and most importantly the level of commitment that their new owners demonstrate. They were ditched by someone already. I am sure they are grateful for the love, guidance and understanding that teaches them how to be successful!!!

Posted: **Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:44 pm**

Piggy-backing on Christie's using the word "grateful"--literally--this subject has come up on a multitude of occasions over the years: are rescues grateful? (For the purposes of this forum, I'll restrict it to dogs.)

People in rescue tend to say that dogs are. Perhaps it's because I only do the problem ones that I don't see that. Then again, it may be my view of "grateful." I've seen/had rescued dogs wanting to "please" (fearful due to past treatment, and/or submissive by nature, etc.), and I've seen/had them abused wanting to rip you from limb to limb (fearful due to past treatment)--and then there was (is) Thor, who viewed life as one big party and didn't want anyone crapping (training) on his parade. (He's still does like to party, though.)

In regard to "grateful," I'm in the minority. And that may be because I am not using the same defination as everyone else. (??)

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:01 am**

I guess I am confused... I thought Christie was meaning grateful as in - I am a breeder and seeing dogs that are successful in their rescue homes makes her feel grateful..... I don't think she was saying the dog feels grateful???? I mean Gwen is grateful when I feed her and she likes her belly rubbed and she is probably really grateful when I don't catch her doing whatever to correct her... but grateful for having a home and a person who loves her?? I think that she just assumes that it is her due. I know my sisters dog is a rescue a day or two from being pts. I don't think he looks at her like he is so grateful, in fact we call him psycho tyco... He isn't horrible but quite frankly he is a strong headed stubborn GSD who needed a person who wasn't gonna be bullied by him. He ended up at a rescue and was quite nasty to some of the people there (no biting, just a big show)... so here he is.. happy, healthy, yes.... grateful. Nahh not really.

speaking of grateful... I uploaded a short clip to my youtube account... here it is.. it is my first video ever...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flgdPxR3oMc

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:29 am**

Christie's last sentence: "I am sure they are grateful for...."

Watched the video, but could see about two-seconds. Was there more and it's my stupid computer that keeps cutting it off?

Must say, the two of them look quite comfy. Gwen appears a little stingy with her toys....that, or a big tease.

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:33 am**

Nahh it was about 7 seconds... it is my sisters couch...I didn't want to give too much away while we are um.. house sitting...

Little miss princess is VERY stingy with the toys, so I have to referee. Although she does like to play tug. Gwen isn't getting much playtime either. We are working on "place" since she just can't stand it ..... What a drama Queen!! Are the boys as bad as she is? :dsroll:

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:37 am**

Mr. Thorzine is very interactive but had this rotten, stinkin', annoying habit of keeping a toy in his mouth juuuuuuussssst out of your reach. That nonsense stopped fast. With a clap of my hands, he brings and places it in my hands. (In learning, if he hestitated or teased: "GAME OVER." The two saddest words ever spoken.)

With his father...well, those two boys haven't worked it out yet. Husband wonders why. I say because you let him. Husband says they'll never play if it's "game over" because Thor starts off teasing with the toys. I say because you let him--end the game, start again later. Husband says.... (It's a circular conversation that I just need to step out of sometimes.)

I've said it before: dogs (animals) are easier than husbands (people).

P.S.: Didn't understand your reference to "place."

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:19 am**

Gwen now has a new "place" command. I put her in a spot and it is now her "place" she may not move, scoot, roll, stretch, sneak, peak, grumble, bark, sigh, I could go on she is such a drama queen........ until she is released. It has cut down on a lot of her random activity and made her a much calmer dog... amazing, the more I boss her around, the better she does. She is constantly chewing on something though (if I let her) like she is ravenous. You'd think I don't feed her.

As for the husband, sigh............................

At least he is now interested in dogs after I dragged (?) him to a PSA trial. He is talking about maybe being a decoy.. and then he goes and babies Izar.. I am surprised that the dog behaves as well as he does.

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:29 am**

Sadie is less "bouncy" when she stays too! funny how that works, works with kids too

.

I am grateful for having Sadie, Thalie is too, except when Sadie steals the ball, they play all day and chew on each other and chase each other around the yard. Sadie is just a happy dog, squirrels and leaves to bark at. She isnt happy about not being able to go into the pantry and gobble up all of the food the kids dropped or get into the garbage, but she is okay with looking in and thinking about what she could be eating. I think she is grateful that she has a big fluffy doggie bed though! :dswink"

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:34 am**

Gwen is grateful that her mom let her sleep on top of her last night....

<---- that's what she was doing in her head.. i meant on the bed

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:40 am**

Kristie Elliott wrote:Gwen is grateful that her mom let her sleep on top of her last night.... <---- that's what she was doing in her head.. i meant on the bed

HAHAHA, I grew up with Bassetts, I had one that every single morning, she would jump on my back and wedge her nose between my face and pillow and do anything she could to get to my face for morning kisses, then she would get so happy she would sneeze.

Thalie has a nice fluffy bed next to mine so i can hang my hand down and scratch her

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:57 am**

Raven wrote:Piggy-backing on Christie's using the word "grateful"--literally--this subject has come up on a multitude of occasions over the years: are rescues grateful? (For the purposes of this forum, I'll restrict it to dogs.)

Can dogs be grateful? I don't know. Can dogs feel guilty? If they can demonstrate remorse about a situation or behavior that occurred, can they not show appreciation for a behavior or situation?

Just poking fun at you! It's probably just projection. I think they SHOULD be very grateful given the alternatives.

Honestly though, I don't know. I think that people develop opinions on the emotional capacity of animals based on their relationships and need to interact with them in certain ways. It wasn't that long ago that certain races didn't believe that other races had the emotional capacity that they did. This is what they were brought up believing based on how they had to interact with those other people.

I can't say anything with conviction until it can be proven or dis-proven with science.

We do know that phycopharmacueticals are drugs (valium, prozac, xanax...etc) or chemicals that alter emotions in humans. They were developed on animals and they were said to alter "behaviors." Same chemicals, same physical reactions - different terms.

Also, from a very young age, we are taught to read emotional status based on body language. How many of us had to draw a happy face? A sad face? An angry face...? Dogs are constantly bombarding us with body language that would be construed in a human as certain emotions, but it would be anthropomorphic to say that about animals. It would be anthropomorphic to say that Dante loves me and therefore came to lay against me on a 65 degree night, making sure he was quietly touching me. You could say it was a previously rewarded behavior, but you could say the same thing about the motivations of a human who does the same thing. I do it because it has an emotional meaning to me to rest my head on Matt. Why do we have to make stark assumptions that there can't be a similar emotional component?

All of that being said, I think it is proven that animals don't think as in depth and abstract as we do. If they did, dogs would drive and live in houses that they built. So I think that demonstration of brain power may carry over to emotional capacity and say that things are on a more basic, survival level for them. So what are our most basic emotions?

Sorry to hijack the thread. I love playing Devil's Advocate!!

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:18 am**

Christie M wrote:
Raven wrote:Piggy-backing on Christie's using the word "grateful"--literally--this subject has come up on a multitude of occasions over the years: are rescues grateful? (For the purposes of this forum, I'll restrict it to dogs.)
Can dogs be grateful? I don't know. Can dogs feel guilty? If they can demonstrate remorse about a situation or behavior that occurred, can they not show appreciation for a behavior or situation? Just poking fun at you! It's probably just projection. I think they SHOULD be very grateful given the alternatives.

I ll play Christie! I know that they understand when we are not feeling well. Or when we are angry, happy, sad, frustrated.... Gwen is very cognizant of our emotions as well as Izar, who hides if anyone is angry or frustrated. I also think Gwen is a huge stinker.. as in has a sense of humor and has fun with me.

Honestly though, I don't know. I think that people develop opinions on the emotional capacity of animals based on their relationships and need to interact with them in certain ways. It wasn't that long ago that certain races didn't believe that other races had the emotional capacity that they did. This is what they were brought up believing based on how they had to interact with those other people.

I can't say anything with conviction until it can be proven or dis-proven with science.

We do know that phycopharmacueticals are drugs (valium, prozac, xanax...etc) or chemicals that alter emotions in humans. They were developed on animals and they were said to alter "behaviors." Same chemicals, same physical reactions - different terms.

psycho pharmacology (what a great coincidence, I happen to be listen to my class right now, sort of)... in the psych world behaviors are emotions.... which means .. your behavior, mine, john doe.. blah blah blah is a result of a feeling.. I am not a pure behaviorist as in stimulus response conditioned non conditioned etc. It is great thing for training dogs and young children but loses the depth and being of people reducing us all to response and stimulus. As for the animal testing, well yes and no.. we are the same and we are not .You get more consistency with animals (rats and mice).. if it were that simple then the psycho pharmacology would be more precise and it is very far from precise... ..

Also, from a very young age, we are taught to read emotional status based on body language. How many of us had to draw a happy face? A sad face? An angry face...? Dogs are constantly bombarding us with body language that would be construed in a human as certain emotions, but it would be anthropomorphic to say that about animals. It would be anthropomorphic to say that Dante loves me and therefore came to lay against me on a 65 degree night, making sure he was quietly touching me. You could say it was a previously rewarded behavior, but you could say the same thing about the motivations of a human who does the same thing. I do it because it has an emotional meaning to me to rest my head on Matt. Why do we have to make stark assumptions that there can't be a similar emotional component?

This could be for the betterment of the pack. If you freeze, who will hunt for the meals?? lol... I think there must be some sort of emotional connection because I have had dogs that could care less about my emotional state or well being and others that made efforts to make me feel better. (ok so maybe they just liked my salty face and runny nose...

All of that being said, I think it is proven that animals don't think as in depth and abstract as we do. If they did, dogs would drive and live in houses that they built. So I think that demonstration of brain power may carry over to emotional capacity and say that things are on a more basic, survival level for them. So what are our most basic emotions?

hmmm dogs have conned their way into our houses and have us chauffeur them around so one could say that they are more advanced than we are because they got us to stuff for them??

So I FEEL like you are asking for the basic colors please remember everyone that anger is a secondary emotion not primary...

Sorry to hijack the thread. I love playing Devil's Advocate!!

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:38 am**

Kristie Elliott wrote:psycho pharmacology

Darn it, I HATE spelling things wrong

Kristie Elliott wrote:(what a great coincidence, I happen to be listen to my class right now, sort of)... in the psych world behaviors are emotions.... which means .. your behavior, mine, john doe.. blah blah blah is a result of a feeling.. I am not a pure behaviorist as in stimulus response conditioned non conditioned etc. It is great thing for training dogs and young children but loses the depth and being of people reducing us all to response and stimulus. As for the animal testing, well yes and no.. we are the same and we are not.

OK, but how and why? Why are our behaviors a result of feelings or emotions and animals are not?

Medically, Clavamox/Augmenten works on the same mechanisim in both? Asprin crosses species in its effects. Ibuprofen and Carprofen are in the same class, just metabolized differently. Don't seratonin reuptake inhibitors inhibit the uptake of seratonin regardless of species? It is my understanding that the mechanisms of action are the same. So why are the results viewed differently?

Christie Meyer wrote:Also, from a very young age, we are taught to read emotional status based on body language. How many of us had to draw a happy face? A sad face? An angry face...? Dogs are constantly bombarding us with body language that would be construed in a human as certain emotions, but it would be anthropomorphic to say that about animals. It would be anthropomorphic to say that Dante loves me and therefore came to lay against me on a 65 degree night, making sure he was quietly touching me. You could say it was a previously rewarded behavior, but you could say the same thing about the motivations of a human who does the same thing. I do it because it has an emotional meaning to me to rest my head on Matt. Why do we have to make stark assumptions that there can't be a similar emotional component?

Kristie Elliott wrote:This could be for the betterment of the pack. If you freeze, who will hunt for the meals??

Of course they could be for the betterment of the pack (although most of our basic "pack mentality" views are wrong). But if you didn't have insight on human emotion couldn't you find survivalist explanations about why humans do things that are based strictly on the emotional ramifications? Maybe I rest my head on Matt because it provides better circulation. LOL. And maybe that IS why. Maybe many of our emotional actions are based on behaviors that are primary to survival. But it doesn't make them any less real.

Kristie Elliott wrote: lol... I think there must be some sort of emotional connection because I have had dogs that could care less about my emotional state or well being and others that made efforts to make me feel better. (ok so maybe they just liked my salty face and runny nose...

HAHAHA - I could say the same thing about some people. Do some animals empathize and some do not? I can list plenty of humans that don't

Christie M wrote:All of that being said, I think it is proven that animals don't think as in depth and abstract as we do. If they did, dogs would drive and live in houses that they built. So I think that demonstration of brain power may carry over to emotional capacity and say that things are on a more basic, survival level for them. So what are our most basic emotions?

Kristie Elliott wrote:hmmm dogs have conned their way into our houses and have us chauffeur them around so one could say that they are more advanced than we are because they got us to stuff for them??

I concede that argument. LOL.

Kristie Elliott wrote:So I FEEL like you are asking for the basic colors please remember everyone that anger is a secondary emotion not primary...

You just did. But can you list them - cause I honestly don't remember. I know fear....and that's about it.

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:01 pm**

I totally agree that animals, and dogs, our topic here, have emotions.

However, I'm going to throw in the concept of attribution theory. That's when you attribute an inner motivation or emotional state to another's actions.

Now, just think about all the times someone looked at what you did or how you looked to them, and attributed an incorrect motivation or emotional state to you. They saw "X", and said, "you must be feeling this" or thinking this. You, being the one who had the feeling or thought, knew they were wrong.

If it's that difficult to make correct attributions to human behavior, how much more difficult is it for us to make correct attributions to our canine companions? I think the difficulty factor multiplies a great deal across species.

Personally, I don't think dogs feel grateful for being rescued. I think they can be very happy to be where they are, in a great home in which they are well cared for, but I think the concept of being rescued is probably beyond them. At least, as we conceptualize it.

My spousal unit and I are always saying how glad we are that our dog will never know how lucky she is to be living her life with us

. To her, her wonderful life is just normal, and the way things are. I am grateful that she will never find out just how lucky she is. But is she grateful for it? Nah. If she feels anything about it, I'd say it's entitlement

.

I do think, much like humans, different dogs have different capacities for empathy and other emotions. I also think that we humans have a strong tendency to read into our dogs what we'd like to see there. But that does not mean that the dogs don't have emotions, just that what they're thinking and feeling may be a bit different than what we think they're thinking and feeling

.

At least, that's my

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:08 pm**

omg I just wrote long huge reply to Christie and it is gone...gone... woe is me...

Dutch Shepherd Forum

My Thor !

My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !

Re: My Thor !