Is the Dutch Shepherd less "skittish" than the Malinois?

[greydarrah]

I currently own a 6 year old female Malinois. She's a great pet. Although I'm not involved in protection training, nor looking for that aspect in a dog, I'm very active in training obedience as well as other "fun" training, like frisbee, obstacles and other challenging things (climbing, walking beams. blah, blah, blah). In the past, I've also trained my own retrievers (Lab and Chesapeake Bay) for both field trial work as well as actually hunting over them, and trained my own German Shorthair Pointers for the pure pleasure of watching them work birds in the fields with my sons. I'm not presenting myself as any kind of professional trainer, just letting you know that I understand the sort of time/commitment/knowledge it takes to train a dog.

Over the past couple of years, my Mal has been becoming more and more skittish about a number of things. She's scared to death of thunderstorms (I think she learned that from my pointer). We take her everywhere with us, including to work every day (I own a portrait studio), so she's not a dog that's left in the backyard all day. A year or so ago, a room divider screen fell over near her. Ever since, she's often walking around the studio with her tail tucked between her legs, not at all happy. She often stays in her crate in my office, with the door left open and seems OK with that. I work with her on a daily basis, mostly fun stuff like frisbee, and she runs 5 miles a day with me, getting plenty of exercise and enjoying it all. Any training with her has always been on a reward based system, and she's never been hit or treated badly (beyond an occasional tap on the rump about like you'd high 5've a kid, if she's doing something like getting in the kitchen trash can, or running through the house trailing a roll of toilet paper). Mostly she just gets told "no" when she's doing something wrong, but even that sends her tail between her legs and pretty much shuts her down for a while. She's a great dog and companion, not at all the house terror that some Mals are known to be, but the skittishness bothers me.

Since having her, I've really come to love the overall shepherd breeds. Their intelligence is absolutely amazing, as is the commitment to their owner, but I'm a little disappointed in how little pressure mine can handle. I'm not really a fan of the German Shepherd. I think it's been over bred to the point of poor health. That doesn't mean there aren't any good lines still out there, but there often larger size and sloped backs just aren't for me. I'm very fond of the Dutch Shepherd, much closer in conformation to the Malinois, and I like that you don't see them everywhere.

I'm starting to think about my next dog, likely a couple of years away, and I'm wondering how the Dutch Shepherd compares to the Malinois. Do some of you owners of them think they can handle a bit more pressure than the Malinois? When I say "pressure," I'm not meaning "take a beating." All dogs will occasionally do bad things and I'm looking for a breed that you can tell it "no" without having a sulking dog for the rest of the day. I want a dog that can handle some very mild correction, and he/she will think, "OK, I better not do that," then go on with a normal day. Does that make sense?

Thanks for your thoughts and time,
Grey Darrah

[TimL_168]

Ok...I think at the most basic level, some folks would say you'd have a hell of a lot easier go with a well bred working line GSD. They're *typically* harder than a DS or Mal. What that means is that they're normally more forgiving. A perfect example is this- I had to physically remove my 90# shepherd from the road this morning and put her on the correct side of me to stay out of traffic. I had told her three times. She knows the command. She didn't want to. It wasn't very pleasant for her. She got picked up by her collar and an arm under her abdomen, forcibly and verbally corrected. After the car passed, I put my forehead against hers, kissed her muzzle, scratched her cheeks and ears them told her "let's go home now" That's it. Over. Done. She'd do anything for me right away. Both the mal and the DS tend to be more sensitive. If I did that to En, I'd probably have to carry her home shaking. She wouldn't want to let me near her for a few minutes. I've heard of dogs shutting down for long periods. The sensitive nature can be awesome when they're in tune with you. Do you think you might be stressed and she's sensing it?
I can relate to your devotion and approach to both the dogs and their training. What kind of desensitization have you done? I know the pros train long and hard in a VERY specific manner to build solid, fearless dogs. I also know that many simply don't make the cut.
P.S. I LOVE hunting with my shepherds!

[TimL_168]

As to your specific question in the topic...I think in general, most DS are a*little*more forgiving than the mal. But that's just an anecdotal reflection of averages. The two breeds can be so closely related that it's a toss up.

[greydarrah]

Do you think you might be stressed and she's sensing it?
I can relate to your devotion and approach to both the dogs and their training. What kind of desensitization have you done? I know the pros train long and hard in a VERY specific manner to build solid, fearless dogs. I also know that many simply don't make the cut.
P.S. I LOVE hunting with my shepherds!

I try my best not to show any stress around her, because I know she's sensitive to it, but who knows...they're very bright dogs. As to desensitization, when she was a pup (for about the 1st whole year) I constantly put her in slightly uncomfortable situations to build her confidence. Little things like putting her food bowl on a bench that was slid under the dinner table so she had little room to move, or feeding her on the roof of my pickup truck, taking her to a local outdoor gun range and parking a few hundred yards away, then playing with a tug/frisbee/ball for 15 minutes or so. It was all done with play/food/rewards. She was fine with it all, as we slowly built up to those things. But that's about it, and we stopped after a year or so as she was pretty bored with it all.

Grey

[TimL_168]

I'd say start back at the beginning with it. Does she associate anything startling with positive reinforcement? Mine see a rifle come out and they boil over themselves at the back door. They know they're going to track a deer or get a squirrel.

[Mark77]

I'd say they aren't skiddish at all, but more along the lines of hyper alert to an annoying level.