Dutch Shepherd Forum

We got Klein Feb 24 from the Barrow County Animal Shelter, east of Atlanta. At the time we thought hw was near 4 months, but later learned he was most likely nearer 3 months at that time. He was a bundle of energy and love!! Based on his teeth development, our vet's opinion is that Klein is 5 months at this time. He is doing SO well!!

During his first full day at home, Klein learned to sit on command, and sit and wait to be clipped to his leash and unclipped (without command by that evening!). His jumping drastically improved as did his nipping, on the first day, alone! Now his jumping is minimal and his nipping is nearly gone. Of course, he still does some mouthing, but nothing hard like his nips!

Klein has been to puppy classes and is 5 classes into a 10 class, level 1 obedience class. He goes with us to a few stores and is so well-behaved! We try to take him to as many places as possible. He has play friends and will make a friend of any human willing to play as well! After class 3, we switched Klein to a prong collar, as he was pulling incredibly hard on his straight collar. He has responded so well to he prong collar and now we both enjoy our long walks!! He knows "sit", "down", and is working on "stay", "wait", "give", and others. In less than 3 days, he learned to ring bells to go outside and now uses them all the time! We could not be happier with our Georgia peach!! Of course, he is a handful, but he is Dutch so we expected (and hoped for) that!

When I get pictures posted online, I will add some here! He is beautiful! Ok, I may be a bit bias. We do get compliments on him frequently, though, as well as the (expected) "What is he??"

Long story, short, we could not be happier with Klein and are convinced we made the right selection for us! We love our Dutch!!

Congrats and glad you got the handful for which you were hoping! And it's wonderful that you adopted the little brindled beast.

I know that different folks do different things, so I'm just going to put it out there that some are of the opinion that a prong is too early before six-months (physical development) and then there are some who use them on eight-week old pups.

Shame that they don't come with automatic power steering--rascals.

Look forward to seeing Klein.

aaawwwwwwww that is wonderful!!!!!!

sounds good! I sure hope you get some pics online soon :dswink"

We did really debate about the prong collar because he was under 6 months yet. Collar corrections initially worked with the straight collar then slowly began losing effectiveness. He was pulling hard enough our class instructors were concerned he could collapse his trachea. After asking a few more people, we decided the prong collar was the way to go.

Forgot to update on his size!... When we got Klein, he was 26 pounds. 2 weeks ago he was 42 pounds!! I'm sure he has gained 3 or 4 pounds since. We need to weigh him again! He was thin when we got him (could see his ribs) and is not a healthy weight (we can easily feel his ribs, but can't see them like we could before). His frame has grown SO much!! At 4 months he was 34 pounds, so I've heard we can expect that to double. Our little baby got big so fast! We are excited to see the thick, handsome guy he will become!

If you haven't already read it at some point in time, check the thread about "growth" under the "Whatever" category just as an FYI. You still have a growing pup, though....

But what if you ended up with a monster....bwahahahahaha. I would laaaaaaaaugh!

You're going to have sooooo many stories.

That is fantastic progress with your pup! You're well on your way to having a GREAT dog!

All right then. You got a super sized pup and named him "little". Go figure.
As for the prong collar. I am sorry to say, but I do not endorse a trainer who thinks that a 6 month old pup could not be corrected from pulling any other way. What do you do once he grows immune to the prong? E collar at highest setting for a long down at 12 months? Surely there are better ways? Like truly rewarding for good behavior (now that it still matters to a young dog) coupled with corretions on a regular flat collar (or if need be, a choke collar?)
Not passing judgement on you though. I know you are just following advice. But I worry if a road like this is taken this early in the game.

vneerland wrote:All right then. You got a super sized pup and named him "little". Go figure.

I laughed because my last name is Clyne, My grandfather used to spell it Klein, and yes...... im only 5'

I was thinking the same thing that Judith wrote when I commented on the prong, but I'm not the individual to comment on it. I hate to see especially young pups yanked and cranked, and moreso for the slightest infraction--not that Klein is--just saying that I've seen it. Even adult dogs, in a new home, need time to learn right from wrong and the degrees of corrections/consequences. Training is a process. (But, you're in a time-sensitive class where the trainer is an advocate of a particular approach, so....)

Do you have any thoughts on the trainer's approach?

vneerland wrote:: E collar at highest setting for a long down at 12 months? Surely there are better ways? Like truly rewarding for good behavior (now that it still matters to a young dog) coupled with corretions on a regular flat collar (or if need be, a choke collar?)
Not passing judgement on you though. I know you are just following advice. But I worry if a road like this is taken this early in the game.

That is harsh, IMO. not that im super trainer, but in all of my Ring work, no one used an ecollar for obedience work, only bite work. Are you working up to a long stay with short stays and slowly moving farther, or just getting the long down quickly?

dutchringdog wrote:

vneerland wrote:: E collar at highest setting for a long down at 12 months? Surely there are better ways? Like truly rewarding for good behavior (now that it still matters to a young dog) coupled with corretions on a regular flat collar (or if need be, a choke collar?)
Not passing judgement on you though. I know you are just following advice. But I worry if a road like this is taken this early in the game.

That is harsh, IMO. not that im super trainer, but in all of my Ring work, no one used an ecollar for obedience work, only bite work. Are you working up to a long stay with short stays and slowly moving farther, or just getting the long down quickly?

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say Lisa. I am NOT suggesting that it should be considered a reasonable approach. No more, IMO,than the use of a prong (prikband, for the Dutch members) on a 6 month old dog seems reasonable to me. I would assume that it is physically impossible to have spent a huge amount of time on foundation work at that point in the pups life, so I would hope that kinder methods (and clear communication) could be tried first. Do I use a prong? I have. But if you asked me to go find it right now, you'd have to be patient, since I have no clue where the blasted thing might be.

I do not mean to offend you Rebecca. You are just following advice, and we are not passing judgement on you, just being critical with regards to the trainer who suggested a prong for your pup. Where Sharon/Raven is a lot more polititically correct about it, I fear that I am too direct, but it is not at all aimed at you or Klein. We are truly just trying to help.

I've heard a very experienced police dog trainer say, the more correction tools a handler uses, the less knowledge he has of dog behaviour...
Often this is true, not aiming at you, but at your trainer

I've had people tell me to use a prong on my 10 month old Dingo, I used it once, because they said it was the only solution, but I never felt ok about it. That alone could be a reason for it not to work, but I thought like Judith said, if I start with this now, then what is next if my dog is really strong and mature? (with strong I mean mentally!!). He reacted bad to the prong (agression because of misunderstanding, I was not being clear and so to him unfair) and I took it off. I worked around the problem for a while, and I wish I had known than what I know now...
Anyway, I did get him where I wanted with patience, practice, and being really clear to him in "dog-langauge". I did use a prong on him later, when he was about 3, he could handle the pressure than and showed a totally different reaction to it, he responded as expected and learned from it, instead of closing up/panic agression like he did at 10 months. I feel it's like telling an 8 year old child to cook dinner. They will try, but cannot handle it yet, if you allow them to grow up stable first, than they can.

What a great way to put it Marjolein!! and some great points as well. Making sure your dog knows what you expect is the most important point second to knowing that your dog can handle what you are asking. Gwen has some stink in her eye today so we put her e collar on just in case she decides to go gallivanting around the county. I am not sure how others here use it but I use it mainly for recall starting with very low levels. I can recall her from most anything on this level which is good because she had a very bad experience with it (the collar) and the trainer we worked with was well, less than stellar. Gwen didn't understand what was expected so when she was stimmed she got confused and she shut down. Needless to say I don't recommend the trainer and we have recovered well enough that Gwen can run free on the property and I know I have a reliable recall. It was a valuable lesson.

I am agreeing with you Judith, I dont agree in using an Ecollar for a long down on a 12 month old. like I said, we never used Ecollars for obedience. It was all time and reward.

The husband once asked that with full-positive reinforcement what would keep a dog from initiating an unacceptable behavior only to stop itself in order to get the desired reward. My response was that it can happen...smart dogs especially will manipulate.

Along a similar vein: Prong goes on dog. Smart, tough dog can say, "Self, prong's on. Time to not eat grandma." Prong's removed. Smart, tough dog can now say, "Self, prong's off. Time to fill my belly."

They'll manipulate. That's part of their learning curve. And the more that they are not allowed some freedom to make choices with guidance, the more likely they are to eat poor grandma.

Raven, I do agree on the logic, but this is where the human comes in. I had the same arguments with horse training. Stronger bit - more submission, softer bit - harder the rider has to be. Yes, only if the human dosnt understand training and dosnt know how to use the training instrument. I am not enforcing the use of harsher training by saying this but I want to also say that, like I used to say to my horse students, The stronger the bit, the softer the hands must be and the more knowledgeable the rider( handler). That does not mean one can put on a harsh training instrument and then "bang the crap " out of the animal. Of course I would rather see positive reinforcement so puppy dosnt eat grandma. But that is where the time and knowledge of the handler comes in.

Lisa...only had the energy last night to be generic, but yes. I really liked what Marjolein said of the K-9 handler who uses a lot of "tools." And that's really what a prong is: a tool.

I wish there were a way a person new to prongs could find someone/thing other than dogs to "practice" on. (This is a general statement--not toward the OP.) And how many different ways have we seen people even have the dog wearing a prong--including trainers--or when and how to use it? Too low, too loose, too tight, etc. The second a dog does something wrong--POP.

On a truly alarming note, while shopping again for those non-existant indestructible dog toys in a pet store recently, a guy was looking for something strong and big enough to fit his dog's neck because he said a flat collar "doesn't work." The young clerk was no match for the guy's tenacity. In the end, she reached for a prong (afterall, it looks torturous enough for a "big, strong dog with a thick neck" and an owner who's just as thick, so to speak)...and she said, "I think it goes on like this..."

I agree with Lisa. I had a girl who tried the same on my Draft Cross (belgian x sport horse). He wouldn't stop for her so she kept upping the ante with stronger bits. Nothing worked well. I never rode him in anything but a snaffle (soft bit so to speak, but can be misused all the same)... time and training teach a horse that size to stop, not some silly piece of metal in his mouth. Training tools are just that, tools, you can hurt anyone if the tool is misused. You can make any animal "tool" wise. A good trainer takes care not to let the smart ones become tool wise. This takes time and patience. Any of these tools are no substitute for teaching the dog/horse what you want. Any fool can go out there and jerk their dog/horse around, the real test is the preparation for the use of the tool.

Kristie Elliott wrote:What a great way to put it Marjolein!! and some great points as well. Making sure your dog knows what you expect is the most important point second to knowing that your dog can handle what you are asking. Gwen has some stink in her eye today so we put her e collar on just in case she decides to go gallivanting around the county. I am not sure how others here use it but I use it mainly for recall starting with very low levels.

offfff topic

on the e-collar: I've never used it on a young dog, (in my case bith dogs were well over 2 years old) and I do not use the low levels... If I use it, I want to use it as a last resource, therefore it has to be so impressive, the dog never even thinks about doing it again. After that first one, (if correctly connected to the command given before the correction came) the command will be followed imidiately. I do NOT want to be using it forever. If you use it well, it only works as a reminder I believe, so first you need to be 120% sure that the command is understood under all circumstances, and the dog can handle this type of pressure.