Considering getting a DS...should we?

[TheVII]

Good days guys and girls,

Writing on my phone, but will proof read as much as I can.

As the title says me and my girlfriend are considering getting a Dutch Shepherd pup. Obviously, we did some research, however I am a firm believer in getting as much intel as possible. This could have probably gone into intro section, but since I had a specific question and not a DS owner yet I figured it would be better to ask here.

I would really appreciate any feedback.

I want to outline our situation and concerns. I'll do my best not to jump around as we have considered this matter quite extensively.

I think I'll start with issues and how we think we are capable of addressing them. And there are a few.

First, and foremost Experience. We are both north of mid 30s. I grew up with dogs, we had rescued strays of the street, bought some, adopted some, etc. Each dog was different, but none were a working dog. I'm personally excited about training a dog, and the feeling you get when dog behaves right is priceless. I do realize I have a lot to learn, and considering the capabilities of some DS I basically know nothing yet.
My girlfriend on the other hand never had a dog. Her older sister's did. However, prior to getting a dog I made few things clear to her, dog she's getting is not going to be given away, it is a work in progress for the life of the dog. She agrees. She also agrees to hire professional trainer, courses for herself and the dog, and further education.

Second, no less important issue is our living situation. It's an apartment, and we both work. I think this is the hardest hurdle to overcome honestly. If we can solve the first issue with the right trainer and determination, changing living conditions in this housing market...
However, my girlfriend runs. She does half marathons and did a marathon, and she's starting to prepare for more. We have a small field a short walk from the house, and long mountain hiking trails less than 5 minute drive. Plan is to do an hour hike/run every morning with training sessions everyday, (we also have a treadmill at home will have to see if it can be adopted for the dog) then 15 to 20 minute walk/training session after work. And 45 minutes walk before bedtime. For now I'm working from home, so for a few months the dog will get lots of attention while we reinforce the crate training, and house breaking.
Down the line the plan is to try and tire out the dog, while teaching it that when its home alone she's working and guarding the place.

Girlfriend really wants a dog with energy to run along with her and push her to go further, however, there is another reason we are considering DS. And that's a piece of mind. As it stands now, my girlfriend is a bit scared of going on these long runs alone especiallyin the dark. And even when we are inside, because our window is on the first floor, she's very anxious at night that someone might break in even if I'm there ("because what if they sneak in while we are asleep.")

Dutch shepherd would fit the protection role just fine, asing as we are not found wanting. And inexperienced person training a guard dog is just asking for trouble. To that end I'll be looking for a trainer/club/courses.

Me personally, I would love to try training a dog to be good enough to compete in obedience, and other events where dog doesn't just show of viciousness but rather exhibit control.

Other dogs we considered were bovier de flanders, Doberman, German Shepherd, Thai Ridgeback, Rhodesian Ridgebacks.
She doesn'tike Doberman. She wants something a little smaller than German Shepherd. Bovier is to hairy and will require too much grooming (plus hot here in California). Ridgebacks are still an option, but both of those have strong self preservation drives and will posture more than protect. Which is actually good, deterant with lower chance of things going sideways and having to put down the dog because it bit someone. Howeve, I'd sleep better at night knowing that if something does go down the dog will not bolt and will protect her.

This is by far not the whole list of issues, however these are primary concerns, and the post is getting long. If you made it this far, thank you very much, its appreciated. Despite what it sounds like, the reason we are getting a dog is for companionship, emotional support (fg lost her mum 2 months ago) and partnership, for the way only these furry things can make you feel. The rest is just a bonus, but a bonus that you have to work for. That work is also part of the fun.

[ladyjubilee]

So a couple of things I noticed in your post...

You mentioned a dog behaving. There is a gulf of difference between a well behaved dog and a well trained dog. Have you ever noticed a really sweet dog out that after the owner say, sit, sit SIT a few times will sit? Or when you visit will behave when you walk in the dog? Those are well behaved dogs. Sometimes its just a dog that naturally has good manners.

A well trained dog takes far more work than that. Its takes time to come to point that the handle says/indicates the basic and the dog obeys EVERY time. And it takes consistency (the sinner preaching here as I'm the worst).

Then you mention your girlfriend wants a running partner..to tire out the dog. With a DS that just isn't doing to happen. She'll still be working to keep up after the marathon is over

Which leads to my other concern, you mentioned you'd be willing to pretty much learn to train, which is great. However, if her expectation is the dog is going to run with her in the present and work as a protection dog in the present, the dog would need to arrive protection trained. Not cheap (our trainer's dogs start around $18,000), and the handler MUST be trained to receive the dog. In the case of the dog running with her, she would need to know how to be a handler. She would need to be prepared for a very powerful, very smart, and very determined animal.

In my opinion, one of the big keys for working breeds is the work. They need that outlet for their drives. I would encourage you both to ask yourselves what you bring to the table for the dog. If you go back to my early posts you see that I was an experienced dog owner, and wasn't looking for a DS. I ended up with Bramble, who DNA has proven not to be a DS, but looks and acts very similar (to the point some professionals that she was.) My sweet girl was a handful. I wasn't meeting her needs and it showed in her behavior. My poor handling was creating a dangerous dog.

That has changed, because we made the changes needed.

I would say, yes, to a DS, but only after you and your girlfriend have interacted with DS in real life and maybe talk to a K9 trainer to learn what it is really like to have a working bred.

You might also reach out to the bred rescue.

[centrop67]

In the early years of owning my first DS, I would have told you that you were crazy for even considering a DS. I've changed my mind of late.

I have since communicated with too many people who I thought the same about who actually have what it takes to own the breed.

Ask yourself some questions...

Will my dog be a true member of my family for better or worse?

If I can't handle the dog, will I find the best home for it, or will I take it to a shelter or worse, abandon it?

Because I am inexperienced, will I seek out the proper trainer who will train me to handle the dog? Do I have the means, time, and mindset for this?

Will I find an activity beyond exercise to stimulate the mind of my dog?

Because I live in an apartment, do I have access to spaces to train exercise, and practice activities?

The breed is euphemistically called mouthy.What will I do in the following situations:
* Constant gnawing to initiate play?
* Clacking in my face to show affection?
* Puncturing the web between my thumb and forefinger during play?
* Getting a softball size bruise on my thigh because I reacted wrong in a situation that upset my dog?

Do I need a Ferrari to drive to the grocery store (see the To DS or not to DS post)?

Now, some advice...

Find a local protection dog club. Their regular meetings are usually open to the public. There you can get face to face advice on breeds, breeders, training, trainers, and more.

Read the To DS or not to DS post.

Read and follow the advice in the how to research a breeder post.

Good luck. I hope you get the dog you need.

[centrop67]

I missed one question...

How will I handle crazy hours?

Crazy hours generally occur late afternoon and early evening. They include but are not limited to the following:

Zoomies.
Chewbacca noises.
Insisting attention.
Pawing.
Annoying anyway possible.

Crazy hours are daily in the early years, frequent in mid years, and never fully subside.

[TheVII]

First if, thank you guys.

I'll try address every point, not to come up with excuses or explanations but rather how we saw ourselves handling mentioned scenarios, or solving mentioned issues.

So a couple of things I noticed in your post...

1. You mentioned a dog behaving... And it takes consistency (the sinner preaching here as I'm the worst).

2. Then you mention your girlfriend wants a running partner..to tire out the dog. With a DS that just isn't doing to happen. She'll still be working to keep up after the marathon is over

3. Which leads to my other concern ... if her expectation is the dog is going to run with her in the present and work as a protection dog in the present... Not cheap (our trainer's dogs start around $18,000), and the handler MUST be trained to receive the dog... She would need to be prepared for a very powerful, very smart, and very determined animal.

4. In my opinion, one of the big keys for working breeds is the work. They need that outlet for their drives. I would encourage you both to ask yourselves what you bring to the table for the dog... My poor handling was creating a dangerous dog.

That has changed, because we made the changes needed.

5. I would say, yes, to a DS, but only after you and your girlfriend have interacted with DS in real life and maybe talk to a K9 trainer to learn what it is really like to have a working bred.

You might also reach out to the bred rescue.

1. Could't greed more. My parents had the nicest behaved pomeranian, which they didn't bother training at all. His obedience came from his disposition not from anything else. I probably could have conveyed my understanding of that fact better. However, I was worried I'd loose people's attention with a long post. I think behavior can be influenced through training, and I've seen how dog improves her day to day behavior with introduction of proper training routine. Merely wanted to point out that the process and results are very rewarding as long as I'm concerned.

2. Yep, seeing the endure of thise dogs...it is probably very unlikely. Will have to come up with puzzle toys and more. Mainly we want the dig to be happy at home alone and no go stir crazy.

3. $18k is a lot, yet worth every cent. Or expectations are down to earth, mainly talking advantage of the natural dog traits, and improving on that with proper guidance. I don't expect a navy seal dog runing next to her, or a fully trained boy guard. As you said not only dog training but also handler training, and the decoy person training, to raise one of those dogs you need a team if highly qualified people. My point is if I had to choose a medium size dog (not talking stuff like mastiff) to be runing next my girlfriend, I would like her to run with something like a Dutchie who naturally will protect rather than run away.

We also have some resources at our disposal, her brother in law is in prison security, with dog trainers and handlers on the team. We'd have a bit of access. But, will constantly try to expand the horizons.

4. Besides effection and companionship we are going to try to come up with some work for the dog. I personally am looking into local Schutzhund clubs, to see if we can join the local groups. Actually I think I discovered DS, as one of the dogs suited for the discipline.

5. Thank you for the vote of confidence, it means a lot. I need to figure out how to show my girlfriend the good side of owning a Dutch Shepherd. So far its been nothing but lectures about effort downsides, and nightmare scenarios.

I also suggested a rescue, but girlfriend is keen on raising one as a puppy. She's not a big girl so she wants to train the dog while the pup is still little. And to nurture it from puppy hood.

[TheVII]

In the early years of owning my first DS, I would have told you that you were crazy for even considering a DS. I've changed my mind of late.

I have since communicated with too many people who I thought the same about who actually have what it takes to own the breed.

Ask yourself some questions...

1. Will my dog be a true member of my family for better or worse?

1.2 If I can't handle the dog, will I find the best home for it, or will I take it to a shelter or worse, abandon it?

2 Because I am inexperienced, will I seek out the proper trainer who will train me to handle the dog? Do I have the means, time, and mindset for this?

3. Will I find an activity beyond exercise to stimulate the mind of my dog?

4. Because I live in an apartment, do I have access to spaces to train exercise, and practice activities?

5. The breed is euphemistically called mouthy.What will I do in the following situations:
* Constant gnawing to initiate play?
* Clacking in my face to show affection?
* Puncturing the web between my thumb and forefinger during play?
* Getting a softball size bruise on my thigh because I reacted wrong in a situation that upset my dog?

Do I need a Ferrari to drive to the grocery store (see the To DS or not to DS post)?

Now, some advice...

6. Find a local protection dog club. Their regular meetings are usually open to the public. There you can get face to face advice on breeds, breeders, training, trainers, and more.

7. Read the To DS or not to DS post.

8. Read and follow the advice in the how to research a breeder post.

Good luck. I hope you get the dog you need.

1. I think I said in there, that I tried to make sure my gf understands dog isn't going anywhere especially to the pound. Everyone getting a dog is probably has the same things to say...all I can say is that we did take care of the dog that probably would have been put down if it was being raised by someone with no patience, constant barking lounging at people...took years and she still barks but we are still working on it... in case the apartment situation isn't going to work I have friends and family who have houses and yards. Worst to worst, my parents can take her. These are last resort. If the dog is a nightmare its not the dogs fault, its on us and we are responsible to the end. Its kind of like that a hole younger sibling...sometimes you want em dead, but they are your family and no matter what noone is going to be closer to you.

2. Yes. Dog is going to obedience school, and going to be hopefully receiving constant guidance. As mentioned above we are willing to learn on our part.

3 and 6. I will try to find something that would be available reasonably nearby. But, I wouldn't want the dog to compete in some sort of obedience events. I want out of my way asking the same questions of my girlfriend. And I would ask them no matter the dog she gets if it's bigger than a lap dog. Ideally would be awesome to train into a proper guard dog, but I understand the commitment for that is basically 7 days a week full time job. But I'm already looking for local clubs, for DS or whatever dog we get.

4. Yes we have a big empty lot few houses down there are electric towers that support powerlines, so there will be no construction. We have a long bike path just down the street, and 5 minute drive away are hills with long hiking trails. There are also big parks nearby with places to walk away from the public...kinda worried about ticks thoug.

5. That's an issue, one I'm prepared to deal with, but need to make sure girlfriend understands it more. We had a talk about being bitten during play, and that it's not out of hate...usually its not even the dogs fault. Its just playing all excited and you shoved your hands where ots mouth is going to be. We would try to discourage it though...not sure how successful that will be.

7 and 8, started out by reading those sections before I signed up to ask a question. I think better analogy than a Ferrari to the grocery store would be do I need 1 litter Ducati Italian motorcycle to go for a Sunday ride. You can go to a class and then get on one of those, and you'd be able to ride a bit before you crash horribly. Most people who have been riding can't handle half the bike, and 99% of thise who ride those bikes can't get anywhere close to it,s full potential, unless they hone their skill and work their way up to the potential of the bike. It feels like I've been riding half a litter bikes and now considering moving up...but my girlfriend only seen bikes on the street and tv...

9. Crazy hours. If its in the evening it's going for a walk. Also going to try out best to turn it into a training session so it can associate training with fun. Good to know that crazy will start when we are home.

[centrop67]

The good side:
1. Extremely loyal
2. Extremely athletic.
3. Gorgeous
4. Lapdogs even at their size
5. Affectionate
6. Most people will cross to the other side of the street while walking and then tell you what a beautiful dog you have.
7. Very trainable - meaning they can be taught to do most anything.
8. They're goofy at times, and will make you laugh or wonder if your dog is broken.

One more minus that you might not want to share with your girlfriend is that they shed. a lot.

Finally, there's a lot of exceptions to these generalizations. I know of a few lazy, lay around and do nothing versions. Some aren't interested in the ball, treats, or anything, and they will be difficult to train.

[centrop67]

I know I keep saying one more thing, but...

The list I posted above is more for self-reflection. If you find yourself with major concerns in your own answers, then maybe they're not right for you.

[TheVII]

Please, the more things you remember the better, for me and who ever might need that information afterwards.

I knew it shed, and not just seasonally, but everywhere it says below average...my parents have american Eskimo, my mum can keep the place clean...but she sheds like crazy, and long white strands in clumps.

Our previous choice was bovier de flanders, so girlfriend was ready for weekly brushing, but short life span and long fur that requires daily brushing kinda turned her off.

The thing is I feel like I have addressed all the concerns I had with the dog, so I'm going outside my bubble. I think all "good" dog traits of the dog have a "negative" or a "flip" side. The key in choosing a dog is making sure those negatives aren't outweighed by positives but are thise nagatives not a negative in your book. For example highly athletic dog for someone who hates going outside is a negative. A working dog that needs to be trained is a hassle for some yet the reasons for getting one for others. Mistrustful of strangers/aloof but also naturally protective etc. different sides of the same coin, but can be the right choice for someone.

My personal concern now is actually getting one. I read how to discern backyard breeder vs a good one on this site. But, these are a rare dogs, and actually finding a breeder to ask the right questions is a bit hard. The prices aren't really a concern as the other option is $3k+ dog. The named breeder information is a bit dated though. I guess nothing some research would not fix.

[ladyjubilee]

Have you consisder one of the rescues
?

[TheVII]

Have you consisder one of the rescues
?

Was my first suggestion to my girlfriend, but she wants a puppy from a reputable breeder with medical checks and the whole 9 yards. Plus she wants to raise the pup herself from the earliest age possible.

Another thing that would worry me would be that a lot of these dogs end up in the shelters because people were not ready for the dog and there might be loads of issues that need correction. I have some experience training older dogs, but with such high energy dog that would be a real challenge, especially if its not properly socialized. If we had a house where we would be able to keep the dog early on without people around and gradually work on it without being surrounded by neighbors.

Secretly hoping that none of these wonderful dogs are in need of a rescue... You'd go through so much to actually find one of these dogs to let one go...every time I even think about people abandoning their dogs my heart breaks.

[ICE]

Hi, looks like most of your question/concerns were answered. I just want to add there is a huge difference between a protection dog and a sport dog (aka schutzhund). I do sport with ICE, its a fun game. Yes he bites and he bites hard but when I say "all done" he turns right off and the decoy can socialize with him. Not all sport dogs are like that (it is the way I chose to train) but most sport dogs would not bite for real. Training a protection dog is a whole different ball game. I don't do it and I don't know anyone who does but please if this is the route you choose find an excellent and very reputable trainer. I do know there are a ton of people out there that would say sure I can teach your dog to be protection dog but be very leery.... or you are just going to end up with a dangerous dog. ICE has proven many times he is enough of a deterrent, personally that is all I want or need. One example story: I went to a different town to get one of his Schutzhund titles. The hotel that I stayed at wasn't the greatest, I had an issue in my room that I went down to tell the management about. The management went up to my room, got there before I could get the dogs up the stairs and used a master key and entered. ICE did not like that someone was in our room. I backed me and him into the corner and just held his harness. The management had about a foot to exit. ICE was on total silent guard, not a sound came out but the guy almost pooped his pants. I bet he never thought about entering our room again.... Would ICE have actually bitten him? I hope not but the man left and never came back.

[TheVII]

Hi, looks like most of your question/concerns were answered. I just want to add there is a huge difference between a protection dog and a sport dog (aka schutzhund). I do sport with ICE, its a fun game. Yes he bites and he bites hard but when I say "all done" he turns right off and the decoy can socialize with him. Not all sport dogs are like that (it is the way I chose to train) but most sport dogs would not bite for real. Training a protection dog is a whole different ball game. I don't do it and I don't know anyone who does but please if this is the route you choose find an excellent and very reputable trainer. I do know there are a ton of people out there that would say sure I can teach your dog to be protection dog but be very leery.... or you are just going to end up with a dangerous dog. ICE has proven many times he is enough of a deterrent, personally that is all I want or need. One example story: I went to a different town to get one of his Schutzhund titles. The hotel that I stayed at wasn't the greatest, I had an issue in my room that I went down to tell the management about. The management went up to my room, got there before I could get the dogs up the stairs and used a master key and entered. ICE did not like that someone was in our room. I backed me and him into the corner and just held his harness. The management had about a foot to exit. ICE was on total silent guard, not a sound came out but the guy almost pooped his pants. I bet he never thought about entering our room again.... Would ICE have actually bitten him? I hope not but the man left and never came back.

Thanks bud. I completely agree, I read enough cases in law school to know that there is a serious potential for liability and having to put down the perfectly innocent dogs who acted the way it did becauseof its owner.

I know schutzhund is more of a test for the dogs potential to make sure the dog is good for the gene pool. I'm actually more interested in obedience portion. I do think having an $18k guard dog is pretty cool, but there is a reason its $18k. I have been looking around Los Angeles area though and most of the clubs are protection sports oriented.

Sounds like you have a great dog

[ladyjubilee]

Great point on the difference between protection and sport.

Ice is awesome.

[Mark77]

I did personal protection training with my dog. I learned a lot and it was great experience. There is a vast difference between a guard dog, personal protection dog, and a protection sport dog. You need to figure out what your goals are with the dog before buying one. The KNPV dogs are good for either personal protection training or protection sports.

[TheVII]

I did personal protection training with my dog. I learned a lot and it was great experience. There is a vast difference between a guard dog, personal protection dog, and a protection sport dog. You need to figure out what your goals are with the dog before buying one. The KNPV dogs are good for either personal protection training or protection sports.

I think what we need is a guard dog (alarm + deterant), what would be cool is a personal protection dog (secret service level protection which associated costs and time), what we would be able to provide is protection sports training (what is available locally.)

A big part of that training would be for the purposes of challenging the dog and providing some structured mental and physical stimulation.

Despite the "cool" factor, a half-hearted attempt at making a serious protection animal is just a disaster waiting to happen. Half-hearted doesn't mean the lack of will, but lack of time and resources. I'm not anyway near qualified, and we have jobs that aren't 24/7 protection dog training. I understand it doesn't need 24/7, but it needs more than just 2 hours a day plus it needs active work in that role.

Therefore, I have no illusions as to what kind of training the dog will likely receive. Only thing I'm absolutely sure of, is that whatever course/training the dog will get, priority for us is obedience training.

[Mark77]

I think you need to review the trainers in your area and find one who has titled dogs in protection sports. Have them evaluate your personal situation because we can't do that here over the web. If they feel you would make a good candidate, they might suggest breeders they know in your area or lines they are familiar working with. It's important to understand this is a huge commitment.

[TimL_168]

Ugh...I had typed up a long post shortly after your original post, but I didn't have time to finish it. I'm going to try to read through everything here while I'm waiting for my class to start up.
Couple random points:
• long haired dogs are beautiful, but HORRIBLE to keep in working order. I once found an 18" piece of rusty barb wire in my Shiloh shepherd's tail and flank hair a few hours after a 5 mile run.
•dog as running partner- DO NOT run your dog before it's fully grown(1 year minimum) trust me.
I'm going to go pull up what I typed before and add to it

[TimL_168]

There's certainly a lot to unpack.
The first thing that caught my attention was my wondering how you were going to manage a demon puppy during your work days. As you said that you're working from home for now, I'd urge you to develop a plan to get the dog used to eventually being crated up during your days.
Second- I ran trails with Endeavor for the first few years. A few notes: •find a way to witness what extreme prey drive looks like in real life and at the end of a leash. •definitely approach your runs as training exercises for both you and the dog. My running goals were often difficult to reach because of the focus needed to keep my dog engaged with me.
Third, and this is a huge one. Do NOT run your dog before it's fully grown. Do some research. I learned this the hard way with a previous dog.
With regard to protection training- Patty is on point as always. I have trained Endeavor to bark both on command, and at whatever I point towards or otherwise get hey focused on. That bark is a huge deterrent. Huge. It's proven helpful in reminding folks with zero off leash control to gain control of their spastic dogs, and it's def kept at least one weirdo away from my kid. So even without actual protection or sport training, there is a way to train usefulness.
•I got my dog as a wash out at fifteen months old. She's stellar. Very smart. Healthy. Energy for days, but happy to chill in her crate. Exactly what I was looking for. She and I have a great bond. That bond is built on working TOGETHER and learning to trust each other. My point is that you can do that, too. You don't *need* a puppy to get that. Also, green dogs give you the distinct advantage of being able to see (more or less) their personality, drives, etc. Puppies, no matter how well bred and how careful you are with specific breeding pair and puppy selections, it's always a crap shoot.

[centrop67]

I have trained Endeavor to bark both on command, and at whatever I point towards or otherwise get hey focused on. That bark is a huge deterrent. Huge. It's proven helpful in reminding folks with zero off leash control to gain control of their spastic dogs, and it's def kept at least one weirdo away from my kid. So even without actual protection or sport training, there is a way to train usefulness.

A lesson learned for me now. Thanks Tim.